posting from Rome

I am currently on a family vacation in Italy but I had to post what the Ministry of Foreign Affairs sent my husband. Apparently they have a new service where they send the male guardian a text every time a “dependent” leaves the country. They don’t state which country the dependent left for but simply state that they did leave. My husband tells me he got the same text when I left for Germany. I am an adult woman that has been earning my own income for over a decade now but according to the Saudi government, I am a dependent till the day I die because of my gender.
Otherwise, I am having loads of fun. yesterday I met one of my readers, Carmen. we had espresso near the Piazza Navona and then she showed me her beautiful shop, Via Dei Banchi Vecchi. It’s a Rome showroom for her family’s handmade ceramics factory in the south of Italy. and she was nice enough to present me with a beautiful handmade ceramic sculpture. thank you Carmen. It was fabulous meeting you!

Update

Check the next post for clarification on the wife-tracker.

130 Comments

Filed under Eman, Gender Apartheid, Popular

130 responses to “posting from Rome

  1. Kha

    My goodness. They send text messages? It’s amazing how a country can get with the times in terms of technology but be COMPLETELY behind in terms of gender and sex equality. Huh.

  2. Maan

    Hello Eman, I happened to be browsing and came across this site…and to might delightful surprise find what seems to be a rare occurrence..an open dialogue by a Saudi woman. I’ve been in Saudi for about 15 months now (I’m from Bahrain) and this is probably the only time that I tell myself “so there are some sin thinkers in the central region”…I have to read more of your writing…and your English is immaculate!

  3. Hi Eman,

    a friend of mine was telling me that Rome is so full this year :)…
    I was travelling with my mother who is 60 that time and we discovered that the permission has expired, the officer told me, it is okay if the female above 50 she can travel without a permission!!!

    what shocks me more; that lots of female doctors and Phd holders cannot travel to attend any conference or event without getting a permission from her male guardian who could be 21 years old but useless or younger than her..

    for me, this is real tragedy when well-educated depended females cannot even visit a Saudi gov. office without their guardian not to mention travelling abroad..
    Enjoy your vacation :) this won’t change soon.
    كان الله بالعون

    • I think they each chose whatever age they want to as my mom is 54 and still needs permission from her younger brother (she is divorced) to travel, and still has to travel with a paper giving her permission from said younger brother.

      And you are correct, it is a tragedy when a grown women cannot make her own decisions and must in essence beg her brother/son/father/husband for whatever she needs.

  4. I can say nothing intellectual for only my heart responds. How incrediably degrading to not own ones self. And this term you used “male guardian’? I’m sorry but it seems strange to me.

    On the one hand men are described as ‘guards’ which throws up images of benevolent protection. Yet, from all Ive read it seems its the ‘guards’ that woman need to be protected from due to their apparently uncontrollable lust should she show skin.

    Extraordinary!

  5. well, it could a good way so the father knows what happened to his family when they go aborad ..

    anyway, maybe I stand in the oppesite side not because I am a male but because I’ve heard many stories form one of my relitives who works in Passport department about issues that have haapened where ” some people ” mistrust their partens ..

    there are many issues we should see similler to that particualer case that hanppend with you . we should try to put some trust in the women.

    http://bit.ly/cdNucL

    enjoy your trip and have a good time

  6. Post pictures as soon as u can please :) of Rome and the shop. Thanks

  7. Hala

    To think of all the money and planning that go to follow up on women, while our infra-structure is messy and collapsing with the some rainfall, someone up there got their priorities mixed…

  8. There is only one priority that concerns the self-appointed men in power: How to maintain total control over every aspect of their disenfranchised subjects lives. The Saudi monarch declared, in June 2010, his intent to invest $400 billion in Turkey in the coming for years. This was done for two reasons: To secure Turkey’s defense of the monarchs and have them do something to draw Israel into action so Arab autocrats could blame the US and Israel for lack of progress on the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the Turks sent their ships to Gaza, Saudi finance Minister, Ibrahim Al-Assaf went to Turkey and finalized the $400 billion deal. For this amount, the King could have demolished most Saudi cities and build them from scratch.

    The gender segregation and flagrant discrimination against women are political and economic. Just imagine what it would take to employ ten million women. This means creation of 10 million new jobs (or upgrading of the 10 million jobs held by expatriates), and doubling of the dilapidated infrastructure, including roads, housing, offices, hospitals, schools, police personnel and airwaves and the list is long and expensive. This is from the economic angle, but that’s the easy part. The fear of empowering women is political, social and religious. They will become self-reliant, economically independent, physically mobile and mentally free from the yoke of male and system oppression and fears. This is at the heart of marginalizing most Saudi women.

    This is the reason the system wants to know where women go, but more important, what they might be up to. The system also wants to remind men that they are responsible for their families’ actions and behaviors. This is known as political and mental terrorism.

    • Jenna

      Employing women would then dispose of the need for the huge “army” of foreign workers on Saudi soil… I bet it would balance out very quickly.

  9. This is just ridiculous! They have already given us permission to travel, whats the point of this bloody msg! This is truly nerve wrecking! anyway.. enjoy yourself 7abooba… and hope you and the kids and hubby have a great time… see ya when u get back <3

    • “They have already given us permission…”

      • Thats the reality, we must get permission before we travel. In essense any non saudi in Saudi Arabia needs permission from their sponsor to travel.. men and women alike.. without an exit re-entry visa from your sponsor you are not travelling out of this country.

      • Thats the reality, we must get permission before we travel.

        In essense any non saudi in Saudi Arabia needs permission from their sponsor to travel.. men and women alike.. without an exit re-entry visa from your sponsor you are not travelling out of this country.

  10. Pingback: Wife-tracker, Saudi-style « Caledoniyya

  11. TINE

    Have fun sweet friend. I miss you and Saudi!

    Love

  12. Lara

    You are complaining about this?? did you forget that you are Muslims?? or you aren’t anymore.. i don’t care about the Saudi government, but isn’t written in the Islamic books that you need to have this permission? i don’t have anything against Arab women, but i do hate when they act like this.. i had job contract in Riyadh and it pissed me off whenever i see a woman dressing black and puts makeup or showing the have of her hair.. this is sick.. you want to see the world, it’s your right, but do it according to your Islamic rules.. or leave Islam. watch the Saudi women on TV now, what they are doing, how they act.. this is sick..
    in my opinion, the Arab world is suffering from loss of identity. Good luck in your life

    • fawad

      lara got a point!

    • Bart

      Doesn’t Saudi Arabia rewards the death penalty for leaving islam?

    • why everybody get mixed up between culture and religion??!

      • I dont know about anybody else but getting mixed up between culture and religion is extremely easy. It took centuries for those interested to define the difference between what was religion and what was culture in Christianity and still people confuse the two.

    • Unnamed

      I can understand why you’re bewildered.

      How can someone profess to believe that Muhammed is a prophet of God and conveyor of God’s final message….. and at the same time assume they know better whilst hoping to circumvent his teachings.

      IF you believe that Muhammed was indeed a prophet of God, then he conveyed God’s words to us….. Do they therefore know better than God, and assume the feeble intellect of a transient being compares to the knowledge of the creator?

      Moreso I agree with you, it makes me sick too, the prophet said: That if the people who know the straight path stray away from it, they will fall and become the lowest form of life…. as opposed to the ignorant or those who never believed to begin with.

      Saudi Arabians and those from the Gulf region in general (excluding the petrodollars) are fulfilling his statement.

    • To Self-Righteous Lara:

      So – cussing is okay in your version of Islaam?

    • Lara,

      you said “isn’t written in the Islamic books that you need to have this permission?”

      so basically you are saying that it is written to have a permission when a female is travelling?
      well, I don’t think there’s such thing! could u show us!

      • Like many beneficiaries of Saudi largess and based on their religious, cultural, social and political socialization and indoctrination processes, people like Lara, have no interest in, respect for or appreciation of the Saudi people, their culture, religion, traditions or dress code In fact, they consider Saudis (rulers and ruled) as barbarians. They see the Saudis as good for nothing other than money providers. I have lived and worked with many nationalities from all ethnic, religious and racial back ground and their conclusions are identical. It’s an insult to every Saudi women’s being to be lectured by someone like Lara or anyone else for that matter. Ali Alyami

    • Jenna

      Lara please show me the Sura which states that a woman must ask for permission from a man before she can travel…

  13. fawad

    its just a arrivals and departures,SMS servise.whats the big deal lol

    • Kha

      It is a big deal because it is basically a tracking system. Why shouldn’t someone be able to make decisions on their own without anyone knowing? Doesn’t a woman, or ANYONE, have a right to privacy? These text messages imply that these women are so helpless or dumb that the husbands need to keep a watchful eye. You know who you need to keep a watchful eye on? Children. Grown women who are professionals are NOT children. They should send text messages if a child leaves the country alone, not a grown woman!

    • Jenna

      You know I also want a tracking system for my husband…everytime he talks to some strange woman or flirts with a woman… I want an SMS!

  14. Lara wrote–“did you forget that you are Muslims?? or you aren’t anymore.. i don’t care about the Saudi government, but isn’t written in the Islamic books that you need to have this permission?”
    ——————
    Where are you now, Lara? Still in Saudi Arabia or somewhere else? Where did you live when you were in Saudi Arabia, compound if so why?

    Whether you intended it or not, your comment, above, supports those who say Islam is an oppressive and backward religion because of the way women are treated.

    Let us assume that the Quran (15 centuries old) did say men are superior to women and must control their lives and livelyhood; should a Saudi female doctor, physicist, pilot, engineer, or business executive seek permit from a male relative (guardian) to travel, to seek employment, to go to school, or to receive medication?

    You also said it made you sick to see some Saudi women wearing make up or show portions of their hair. Are you saying that half of the world population, women, are disgrace to humanity because they wear make up and are not camouflaged in stifling black garments-Halloween custom?

    Are you not saying Saudi women have no identity if they are not invisible?

    • Lara

      Dear Ali, you are mistaken.. I’m not against Islam.. i do believe that Islam has really took care of women rights.. and if just people follow it’s rules as it is with out being smart asses.. life will get better..
      you think that the European countries has the best life for women, or you think that the western world know how to treat the women .. and that the Arab world is ignorant.. let me say this.. YOU, made it like this.. in Islam, you have the best and perfect rules, and now, you are kissing the asses of the western world.. shame on you.. how come a woman become a pilot? women have their homes.. but it’s great if a woman can combined working in a job that suits her, when people really appreciate it.. like a doctor, a teacher, etc.. and if she has to attend a “conference” why not taking a man with her.. a happy family would balance their life.. don’t tell me about it. i left Saudi Arabia because i felt sad living there, i went there in the first place to experience the life i always read about it, an to see why the world is against Muslims and they fear Islam.. then, i got the shocking truth, that you are the ones who give the bad impression of Muslims.. I’m telling you this, after i met with people like you.. and with decent people, “open minded” who are practicing Islam and enjoying their life.. but you have the wrong idea.. you think you are open minded, but you are not. i’m sorry. again, good luck

      • In order for this very important dialogue to be informative, constructive and thought provoking, it should be governed by civility regardless of disagreements among discussants.

      • Bart

        Lara, no woman is being forced to become a pilot. Western women can either choose to work or stay at home and raise their children and do whatever they want. Most arab women are forced to stay at home. How can a society with less freedom have better rules?

      • Jenna

        What I dont understand… is why the dichotomy? Why does it have to be… pro-Islam, anti-Western and who set the board up this way? I know plenty of western, progressive, Liberally minded, intellectual, wonderful MUSLIMS. The US census just calculated that Muslim women in the US have the highest % of terminal degrees of any religious group. That’s pretty great! We need to stop the hate mongering and move forward together… that means for me… allowing women to reach their full potential unfettered… I believe that it is not mutually exclusive with Islam.. but it IS not possible with the cultural baggage many people “believe” Islam should be practiced under.

      • Dear Lara

        I find your post offensive on so many different levels.

        1) Are you trying to say that Muslims living outside Saudi Arabia that allow women to travel alone are not good enough Muslims? If it is haram for Muslim women to travel without a Mahrim then why do so many Muslim religious ulama have no problem with it? What makes you smarter than them?

        2) You said: “You went to Saudi Arabia to experience the life that you always read about.” People like you make me laugh. You create an idealized world that you read about and then are shocked when reality does not conform to this world. Did you expect Saudi Arabians to be stuck in 600 AD? The world changes and the social circumstances that we are living in are different than they were in the prophets time. If there was ever a ban on women travel during the prophet’s time, it was because travel was dangerous. Now in the time of planes, cars and the hyper-connected world travel is no longer dangerous. Most religious figures recognize this. Its a pity that you don’t.

  15. Magid

    Une petite question ?

    Quand vous allez a l’étranger Miss Saudiwoman porter vous le simple hijab or not ?

  16. Magid

    A quick question?

    When you go abroad you bring Miss Saudiwoman simple hijab or not ?

  17. Magid

    Honestly I will not cry for Saudi women, they can travel whenever they want with their husbands and families rich.

    Considering how he treats their employees abroad (Pakistan, Asia …) as slaves, and I even talking about the Saudis no longer married father who go to see prostitutes in Europe it was even a documentary on French television.

    Madam, the Saudis and the Saudi have a bad reputation and perverse psychophrénie in Europe.

    Europeans close your eyes because you have oil and will welcome you with smiles hypocrites you better sell their luxury product.

    Know this.

    Magid

    • Sadly there are some that fit your descripion, but it is by no means the majority. Not all Saudi women are living in ‘Rich’ lifestyles. Just like every other country in the world there is true poverty here. Not all Saudi men can even afford their own company let alone be able to sponsor workers from abroad. The majority of Saudis are just Middle Class workers that need to actually WORK to make a living.

  18. Countrygirl

    just wondeing what parts of Italy areyou going to see?

  19. Vicks

    Hi there
    Interesting article !!! What amazes me is the fact that though most of the comments on this article suggest they dislike this idea (and many others alike)applied by the Saudi govt but they fail to show the slightest dissent to the authorities or show any form of protests ( where are the womens rights activists or the muslim rights groups in this case)……
    Wouldnt at all be surprised that had any western govt did the same to muslim women in their countries,,,, the same people will be rallying outside chanting discrimination and islamophobia !!!!

  20. UN

    You said “….I am an adult woman… ” your physical appreances may make you an adult but intellectually you are still a child.

    • Jenna

      tell your mother that.

      • UN

        i wonder if westerners know who their father is

        because as per the western agencies itself most of the population of west are now “born out of wedlock” (i.e. are bastards) even bill clinton stated this in one of his state address

      • Jenna

        UN below… because I cannot reply to you directly… I will not degrade myself to sling useless cultural insults as you do…because you by your behaviour and language prove by you very actions the worth of your useless upbringing. ooo so you call to question all westerners paternity? wow what a glib, intelligent, sly man you are! surely Allah will reward you in jennah! (not!)

    • White Dream

      Hey you dumb UN-not !
      Sure we know who are our fathers ! I am a Muslim westerner and born out of wedlock cause my parents thought Islamic wedding before GOD is enough !!!
      Many non Muslim westerners just think the same and what’s the matter with that ?
      Zawwajtoki, Qabilto … khalasssss :D

  21. UN

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, “It is not permissible for a Woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to travel for one day and night except with a Mahram.” (Book #20, Hadith #194)

    • UN,
      that was because travelling that time was not safe for them to travel alone. although Aisha “um almomnen” travelled alone!

      it is so ridiculous to compare now the way we travel with 1400 yrs ago!

    • Jenna

      So… its a hadith… but does it say it anywhere in the Quran?

      • Jenna

        In general I find those hadiths to be pretty much… taken with a grain of salt… seemed like Muslims had a good thing going with the Quran… if it is a Perfect Recitation from Allah… why did all these people feel the need to muddy it all up with all this hadith business? What did they think Allah wasn’t clear enough? Wasn’t perfect enough so needed to clarify for him? Come on.

    • It is also narrated that Abu haraira made up many hadith and twisted others, Aischa complained about this and Umar ibn khattib threatened to exile him if he didn’t stop making up hadith.
      I don’t understand why his hadith are taken as truthful at all. I think each and every hadith by AbuHaraira should be taken out of the hadith collections.

      Oh, but then his (made up) hadith are so suitably anti-women. That will be the reason they are still quoted so much.

    • White Dream

      This hadith is just against the Sirah !
      It’s obsolete nowadays !
      And anyway… sometimes I feel shia muslims are right to reject Abu Huraïra ahadith !
      (well just kidding :d)

  22. Ari

    I am waiting for the day that these Saudi princesses of privilege actually DO something to set themselves free, rather than merely complaining all the time.

    In the west, both women of privilege and social position as well as ordinary women and even men marched, protested, were arrested and imprisoned where many suffered abuse such as being force fed—all to get equality and the right to vote.

    When Saudi women, as well as other Muslim women and men, are willing to pay the price for equality then they will get it. In the meantime, some will take vacations in the free world, while their less privileged sisters and brothers continue to suffer.

    Until then, happy shopping!

    • White Dream

      Good point Ari

      Well in the West we did many things ! Not just our women but also our labors, our teachers and …
      The problem is that any social protest in Islamic countries are regarded as ” khoruj ” and ” muharaba ” so … Forgetting that Islam was itself a big social and cultural protest and revolution !

  23. Misfits

    Salam alaikum.
    Prophet Muhammads (pbuh) wives and other women known from many Hadith and Quran were more independent, self efficient, enterprising, resourceful and inventive then majority of arab useless women nowadays! What do they do now..? Just sitting at home and getting fat on cushions in front of TV with high university diplomas hidden in bottom drawer..

  24. Goldenraindrop

    I wish you a good time in Rome! Italy is a very beautiful country mashaAllah =)

    I don’t want to judge your country, because I’ve never been there, so I’m not informed enough to do that, but I don’t like the sound of women not being able to travel without the male guardian knowing. It’s all very well if your guardian is a good muslim, and gives you the rights you deserve (like your husband, i have the impression, alhamdulillah) but it can easily be abused, such a position of power, and the lives of women shouldn’t be dependent on the fact that the man is a good person or not. And I believe that you can be an independent woman and still be a good muslimah, i don’t see any problem in that. I have the impression that culture takes a lot of rights away that Islam gave women, and it shouldn’t be like that, and you have the right to say no to such practices.

    Have fun in Rome, Eman, and may Allah swt bless you and your family, amien.

  25. The only people on earth, today, who use their religion and its teachings to justify oppression, gender segregation, squandering of public wealth, torture, intimidation, chopping heads and limbs, stoning and genital mutilation are Muslim rulers and their institutions. God and religion are beliefs not police squad people can call every time something goes wrong. God does not have planes, tanks, prisons, and treasury to purchase, bribe and buy loyalties and favoritism. God and the Quran do not decide who controls, men and their institutions do. Why not focus on and challenge them?

    Many people cite the Quran, the Shariah and Hadith and blame those in power for not implementing God’s well. The men in power use their version of religion to justify their actions. Both sides have been at each other’s throats for almost 15 centuries and nothing has been accomplished. The only way to have a just system is to draft a clear contract (based on consensus) where all members of Saudi society, citizens and expatriates, understand their rights and obligations toward each other and their country. This way, no one group gets blamed for what goes wrong.

    It’s worth noting that the Quran is written in more than one hundred languages and read by millions of non-Muslims. People know what it says or does not say. Religion is a belief, therefore, it must be between the individual and his/her creator.

    Ali Alyami

    • Jenna

      It would seem to me that any religion that attempts to follow any ancient religious book line by line gets into trouble look at the Orthodox Jews and all this silly actions in Israel-Palestine they are being driven by literal translations from the Torah… if Christians were to follow the Bible line by line then a daughter could be sold for a camel and the US (which was originally founded as a Christian fundamentalist country) could still stone adulterers like Iran does today… It was because of the Christian drive to convert all the native Americans that we almost lost them all :( In my opinion… religion makes everything worse… I vote for rational secularism and personal spirituality.

      • The US was NOT founded as a Christian nation. That is modern Christian propaganda. The United states were founded as a strictly secular nation, as a nation free of religion. Meaning everybody is free to practice whatever religion, and they are also to be free from religion. Most of the founding fathers were what we call now atheists.

  26. Don Cox

    “How can someone profess to believe that Muhammed is a prophet of God and conveyor of God’s final message?.. and at the same time assume they know better whilst hoping to circumvent his teachings.”

    I think this happens in all religions. After all, priests are basically intellectuals. They like arguments.

  27. Don Cox

    The USA was absolutely not founded as a Christian fundamentalist country. Quite the opposite: great care is taken in the US constitution to keep religion out of the state.

    Contrast the British system, where until recently bishops had the right to sit in the upper house of parliament.

    • Kha

      While, yes, they separated religion and state, I think that you have to remember the strong puritan and Christian influences on the culture and politics that still exist today. Even if it was not a Christian state in its constitution (and I commend that by all means) there are some ideas that were supposedly driven by religion. What Jenna said about the Native Americans isn’t far from the truth at all.

    • Jenna

      Actually Don I was referring to the early beginnings, pre-Consitution when the “Puritans” were the first civil colonies to come from Europe and they were, indeed, fundamentalist Christian communities.

      • Indeed, the US was founded by groups (Puritans, Calvinists, Huguenots) seeking freedom from religious persecution because they were more conservative, strict, fundamentalist than their home countries.

        While the US Constitution protects freedom of/ from religion, it is written in the name of the Christian God of the country’s founders, and the money bears the “In God We Trust” which refers to the same.

        All Presidents and political contenders end their speeches “God Bless America” which is also the title to the unofficial anthem.

  28. Elisa

    Hi Saudiwoman,
    I often read this blog even if I’ve never replied before (I don’t like to show my poor english…)
    I’m a 30 y.o. woman living in Turin (northern italy), and I’d be very glad to meet you for a coffee and show you and your family a little bit of my wonderful and not very known town.
    If you’re going to come here and you like the idea, don’t hesitare to contact me on the e-mail address!

  29. Safiyyah

    Where in the Bible does it say that a daughter can be sold for a camel?

    • jenna

      actually book exodus chapter 21 it just says you can sell your daughter as a slave… not for a camel specifically… :)

  30. A.

    Please stay in Italy and don’t come back you worthless bitch

    • jenna

      hahahaha what a coward you are… if you are going to call insults why dont you leave your name, your cell phone number and your address you filthy dog so we call can thank you in person

  31. Ari

    The level of misinformation posted here about Islam, Judaism, Christianity and the basis of U. S. Constitution is absolutely stunning. One doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry.

    1) The tenets in the 10 Commandments existed ages before any of the “religions of the book.” You will find them as far back as in the writings of Confucius 551 BCE – 479 BCE. Even the caveman knew that murder was not a good thing.

    2) Christianity is not based in the Torah, the Old Testament, but rather the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament, while Islam is based on both.

    3) Neither Jews nor Christians are mandated in the Bible to conquer the world for their respective faiths. Muslims are mandated to fight until Islam “rules.”

    4) The British system is NOT based on Christianity but rather on English Common Law which existed several hundred years before Christianity arrived in Britain.

    5) The American Founding Fathers, many of whom were rational secularists as well as deists, chief among them Thomas Jefferson the principal author of the Declaration of Independence, were very much AGAINST organized religion of any kind having power in government. Thus, there is a literal wall between Church and State in the U. S.

    Jefferson compiled his own Bible. “The Jefferson Bible, or “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth” as it is formally titled, was Thomas Jefferson’s effort to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists.”

    One of Thomas Jefferson most well known quotes is carved into the stone of the awe-inspiring Jefferson Memorial in Washington, DC:

    “I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny imposed upon the mind of man…” (this in reference to religion.)

    ‘…In a February 10, 1814 letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, Jefferson addressed the religion question directly. “Finally, in answer to Fortescue Aland’s question why the Ten Commandments should not now be a part of the common law of England we may say they are not because they never were.” Anybody who asserted that the Ten Commandments were the basis of American or British law was, Jefferson said, mistakenly believing a document put forth by Massachusetts and British Puritan zealots which was “a manifest forgery.” ‘

    “Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it….”

    “We might as well say that the Newtonian system of philosophy is a part of the common law, as that the Christian religion is,” wrote Jefferson. “…In truth, the alliance between Church and State in England has ever made their judges accomplices in the frauds of the clergy; and even bolder than they are.”

    ‘only two of the Ten Commandments have long been enshrined in our law – don’t kill and don’t steal – and those have been part of human society since the stone age (and are even today part of the rules of “stone age” cultures, who have never had contact with modern religion). These two are clearly part of “nature’s law,” as Jefferson often noted.’

    ____________

    Anyone wanting to learn more about the American Founding Fathers and their views on religion should read: John Adams, Joseph Priestley, Benjamin Rush, William Short, William Baldwin, Charles Thompson, Francis Adrian Van der Kemp and Benjamin Waterhouse as well as John Locke who was a great influence on Thomas Jefferson with his writings of tolerance: “No man, even if he would, can believe at another’s dictation”.

    “Jefferson adapted the reasonable qualities of Locke’s argument with the philosophical underpinnings of Thomas Paine’s natural theology. Jefferson extensively studied Paine’s The Age of Reason and agreed with Paine’s convictions that it was a grave injustice to lock God into a sacred text. This understanding of Paine immeasurably influenced Jefferson’s dealings with the Bible. For Paine, the Word of God ‘‘IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD’’ and through this, ‘‘God speaketh universally to man.’’ Jefferson absorbed this naturalism and sought to comprehend God in the laws of the universe, not doctrinal truths locked in scripture. For both Paine and Jefferson, the God in the Bible did not appeal to reason. That God required complex doctrines and priestly authority to guide in His discovery, excluding many from relating to God on a personal basis. For the reasonable person, the evidence available in creation was all that was necessary. God was not only reachable but also understandable. Based largely on Paine’s influence, Jefferson focused his critique upon such exclusivity, diligently seeking to free Christianity from the darkness.”

    Source: “The Exaltation of a Reasonable Deity:
    Thomas Jefferson’s Critique of Christianity” Kosselak, Jeremy (November 1998).

    _______________

  32. Question for all participants: Would parsing or blaming one religion or another solve the political, economic, social and gender problems facing Saudi women?

    As I suggested earlier, civility and maturity should govern this very constructive and empowering exchange of ideas and thoughts regardless of disagreements among discussants. Insults, condescending comments and avoidance of dealing with the root causes of gender oppression will only perpetuate the illness that have plagued Saudi society for decades.

    This site is about Saudi women, as I understand it. It should focus on solutions, not justifications or comparisons that will not help solve the formidable issues Saudi women and society face.

    Ali Alyami

  33. Cassandra

    Ali Alyami says: “This site is about Saudi women, as I understand it. It should focus on solutions, not justifications or comparisons that will not help solve the formidable issues Saudi women and society face.”

    Saudi and other Muslim women and their men must solve these “formidable” issues— that ALL Muslim women suffer under to one extent or another— themselves. There is NOTHING whatsoever that the rest of the world can do except set the example of how men and women live, work, play and worship together without problems in the other 4/5 of humanity. Furthermore, believers are incessantly telling the rest of the world to “mind your own business.” The day will come when all non-Muslims will pull out and let Muslims duke it out themselves.

    Therefore, one could suggest that Muslims stop complaining, stop justifying and start working on solutions because, the rest of the world cannot help them and has no intention of helping them.

  34. one question that has haunted me since reading this I think directly relates to your last paragraph Ali so I’ll ask now.

    Beyond all theological difference I am always aware that underlining my comments is the absolute conviction of individual freedom of choice no matter the sex.

    My question is do Saudi women hold this value too? If they do, then won’t this eventuate in them seeking this to be reflected in their society? And if they don’t then it won’t happen no matter outsiders opinion?

    Oh and ditto for the good manners!

  35. Kim

    That women are legally minors in Saudi reminds me of when we had the same laws in the west. In Sweden, unmarried women where under the guardianship of the closest male relative until 1858, and married women under their husbands until 1921! Only widows where legally adults. The same laws applied to all western countries; in France unmarried women where minors until 1904, in Denmark until 1857, in Germany until 1884, in Italy until 1865 ! So there is hope for Saudi as well.

  36. Response to leesis

    leesis wrote”Beyond all theological difference I am always aware that underlining my comments is the absolute conviction of individual freedom of choice no matter the sex.

    My question is do Saudi women hold this value too? If they do, then won’t this eventuate in them seeking this to be reflected in their society? And if they don’t then it won’t happen no matter outsiders opinion.”

    Ali’s response, In many cases, those who demand equal rights and equality for themselves are the biggest violators of the same rights for others. I don’t know how many Saudi women believe in freedom of choice and equality for all. However, I read that there are about 4 million poverty stricken and defenseless housemaids and family drivers in Saudi homes. Based on my knowledge and face to face exchanges with some of these expatriates, it appears that most of their abusers are Saudi women.

    Having said this, equality for everyone cannot be accomplished by Saudi women alone. It takes the majority in Saudi society, male and female, especially the men in power, to implement equality for all. In addition, the international community, especially the West, must participate and insist that equality for everyone, citizens and expatriates, is the excepted standard in Saudi Arabia.

    The international community has reaped tremendous benefits as a result of its business and political alliance with and support for the Saudi system. Therefore, the international community has a role in and obligation to help create an environment guaranteeing equality and freedom of choice for all. A peaceful, stable and tolerant Saudi Arabia matters to Muslims and non-Muslims. This can only happen if Saudi women are the authors of their destiny.

    Ali Alyami

  37. Arianna

    Kim, while women may have been chattel in the west, they were never subjected to the sorts of indignities that Muslim women are, not in history and not in the recent past. Western women always worked. If they were wealthy they helped run estates, if poor they worked side-by-side with their men on farms or shops. They could go out, unveiled into the streets where other men were. They were not subject to being prisoners in their homes.

    I recall reading about the astonishment of Muslim males when they first had contact with the west, that women were permitted to be out and about, unveiled, in the streets where men were. No purdah.

    The comparison is really stretching it.

    I do not think there is hope for Saudis because, the people seem to be like frogs in the water bath that is heating up. They are clueless about their own demise under the current system. Clearly no-one is willing to protest, suffer and even die for their freedom. They do like to complain, however.

    Western women got themselves free. Muslim women must do the same.

    ________________

    Ali Alyami says: “The international community has reaped tremendous benefits as a result of its business and political alliance with and support for the Saudi system. Therefore, the international community has a role in and obligation to help create an environment guaranteeing equality and freedom of choice for all.”

    The KSA has reaped more benefits from the western alliance, since they can’t even get the oil out of the ground without expat help. Saudis came from being 7th century nomads and desert dwellers with not a pot to pi$$ in, to being people who live in the dark-ages with modern conveniences and the best of everything from the non-Muslim world.

    Look KSA has oil, the world buys it. The terrorists want to destroy the golden goose that feeds them. If they do that, then KSA and all other Islamic states will suffer. The rest of the world will look after itself and be into alternative fuels.

    Any freedom and equality issues in KSA is up to them. There is nothing that anyone can do to help these people. They need to help themselves!

    Please tell us Ali, HOW, very specifically, is the international community supposed to help Saudis get free from their self-made oppression? Muslims don’t want “infidels” in their holy lands. Sanctions do not work. They don’t want anyone to tell them what to do. They claim that the free world and especially the west are the “satan” and they don’t want to be like that. Still, every decadence the world offers is available and well used in Islamic lands, especially in the Gulf.

    KSA has been called on the carpet many times by human rights groups, which they ignore. So, do tell, how anyone is supposed to help Saudis gain freedom and equality? While you are at it, you might also be specific as to how any Muslims in any Islamic land can be helped by the free world? Are we supposed to march into the Islamic world and force them to be free and give their people equality? Our free, productive examples appear to not be ringing a bell.

    Caged birds often won’t sing or do much of anything. Some become psychotic in their prisons. Some are so used to being caged that when the door is opened, they will not fly. Freedom means choices and responsibilities. It’s so much easier to let the rules be laid out by a whole way of life. That way, no one is responsible for their thoughts, behavior or deeds.

    Muslims would do well to stop blaming their self-made prisons on others.

  38. I know exactly how you feel same thing here. How sad what we have to go through as Saudi women and this just because of our sex. enjoy ur freedom outside the cage.

    Fatemah Kareem

  39. thanks Ali for your response. Would it be fair to say that once the woman of Saudhi ask for these rights then the international community can support them. Anything else would be considered as the west forcing their principles of freedom and democracy down others throats?

  40. Arianna and leesis,

    I agree with everything you said. In fact, I have been saying the same things for 30 years. I can add this: If the Gulf States did not have petroleum, they would probably be like Somalia today. The fact that Western companies discovered, produced, refined and became the biggest consumers and benefactors of Saudi and other oil in the Guff, contributed substantially to the oppression we are discussing.

    Ensuring uninterrupted access to oil at reasonable prices became a matter of absolute necessity for Western industry and economy until this day. This undeniable and inescapable reality made stability in the region a top priority for Western powers. Instead of physically occupying the region, the West installed local rulers, families, to protect its interests, oil, regardless of how or by what means. To say the West cannot and should not impose its well on the region defies facts on the ground.

    Global economic interdependence, global warming, spread and threats of lethal Islamism ideology necessitate global solution which must be led by the West if catastrophic East-West conflict is to be averted.

    Yes, Saudi women are responsible for their emancipation and as you correctly said, it won’t be easy, cheap or handed down on a gold platter.
    Ali

  41. Arianna

    Ali Alyami says: “Instead of physically occupying the region, the West installed local rulers, families, to protect its interests, oil, regardless of how or by what means.”

    __________

    The west didn’t install Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab when he established Saudia Arabia in 1744. Muhammad ibn Saud made a deal with Wahhab, if you recall to bring “true Islam” to the region.

    That was long BEFORE the U. S. was even established as a nation. Don’t forget about all the battles against Egypt and the Ottomans by the new Saudi kingdom.

    Abd al Aziz Al ibn Abd installed himself as Rahman Saud, via the 1927 Treaty of Jeddah, in Arabia eleven years PRIOR to the discovery of oil by westerners. The three historic Saudi states were not exactly conceived in peace and westerners didn’t have much to do with any of their establishment. So, please, don’t get on this western “oppression” bandwagon.

    The Muslims oppress themselves! The reason for the failed Islamic states is their infighting. Remember what happened to Faisal in 1975? His nephew murdered him. Three of the “right guided caliphs” after Muhammad were murdered by fellow Muslims. Islamic history is filled with murderous infighting. The Muslims were driven from al-Andalus because they were fighting each other and were weak as a result. Same as today. They are still fighting each other all over the world.

    King Abdul Aziz said: “Disunity is the beginning of downfall … rather it is the greatest enemy of people … Muslims should beware of division and improve their relations,”

    That was at the first Makkah Conference 86 years ago. This year king Abdullah said exactly the same thing in his keynote address to the conference.

    http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article93580.ece

    So much for the ummah and dar al Islam.

    ____________

    All the rest of the world does is purchase oil, without which Saudis would starve much sooner than any other nation would walk because, the Saudi economy is not diversified. They import virtually everything. The Saudis couldn’t feed themselves because, less than two percent of KSA’a total area is arable land. Don’t forget that 80% of KSA’s workforce is immigrant labor.

    Ooops!

    You cannot imagine how many people in the world, especially those in the west hope, pray and work toward the day that they are freed of Saudi oil. Then the Saudis can return to their ancestral way of life.

    Ali Alyami says: “To say the West cannot and should not impose its well on the region defies facts on the ground.

    Global economic interdependence, global warming, spread and threats of lethal Islamism ideology necessitate global solution which must be led by the West if catastrophic East-West conflict is to be averted.”
    ___________
    Nope! Islamism requires a Muslim solution.

    Ali, you are not being specific as to what other people are supposed to EXACTLY do about Islamism or rather “pure Islam” as Wahhab put it? The only thing that the free world can do is to go after people who attack in their neighborhood. When Islamists target fellow Muslims, that is a Muslim problem to solve.

    Saudi/Muslim problems, not just in the “region” but the world over, are their own to solve. The more others mix-in, the more Muslims call for global jihad and send their indolent, nihilistic sons to fight for Allah. The more bloody jihad and attacks on the free world, the more non-Muslims get radicalized. That is the current spiral.

    The shahada and saber on the Saudi flag as well as the palm tree and scimitars on the Saudi coat of arms are pretty scary things to non-Muslims. The claim that “Islam is peace,” and “the best thing that ever came to humanity,” falls on deaf ears because, the rest of the world sees how Muslims treat each other.

    Poll after poll shows that western populations want UN troops to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan as well as every other failed Islamic state and leave them to their fate. The unspoken theory is as long as they attack and slaughter each other, they will leave the rest of the world alone, for the most part. Western people bitterly resent giving any funds to aid Islamic states that then turn around and sponsor terror and the spreading of Islam in the rest of the world.

    Ali Alyami “If the Gulf States did not have petroleum, they would probably be like Somalia today.”

    No doubt and perhaps worse. Have you seen the most recent cover of Time magazine? This is what the world sees when they think of Islam and how true believers treat their women:

    WARNING, this is a very disturbing image:

    No one can free Muslims, males or females but they themselves. Whether Muslims will take concrete steps to get themselves free and ultimately productive is open to question. It appears most prefer conspiracy theories and the blame game.

  42. Marcus

    Ali Alyami

    Salaam Walaikum.

    If I may join in…

    “I agree with everything you said. In fact, I have been saying the same things for 30 years. I can add this: If the Gulf States did not have petroleum, they would probably be like Somalia today.”

    Good point…

    “The fact that Western companies discovered, produced, refined and became the biggest consumers and benefactors of Saudi and other oil in the Guff, contributed substantially to the oppression we are discussing”.

    Well, yes, I do understand your point, however, this brought a fantastic wealthy economy which Gulf Arabs have enjoyed wildly.. The hypocrisy is very clear and vivid when we continue to see mass slave labour camps across the Middle East, packed to the rafters with immigrants hoping for a new life and a better life only to be forced into slavery and no hope and chance of freedom.. This is pure greed… and slavery has been a part of the culture for decades, centuries and millennia.. and is not lilely to stop anytime soon.

    Te oppression female Muslims endure whilst living under such vile repressive regimes has stemmed back many many many moons ago, since the day Mohammed took slaves, for sex…

    The greed has also rootes sdtemming this far back.. Mohammed and his men raided caravans, killing the men and taking captive the women for slavery and sex, and then looting the booty.. Greed… theft.. stealing… corruption… and continued through his life and to power…

    “Ensuring uninterrupted access to oil at reasonable prices became a matter of absolute necessity for Western industry and economy until this day”.

    Of course it is… No idiot in the world is going to invest the multi multi multi trillions of dollars into energy sectors if they cant take the product or the energy to the world that needs it, and not just for cars…

    “This undeniable and inescapable reality made stability in the region a top priority for Western powers. Instead of physically occupying the region, the West installed local rulers, families, to protect its interests, oil, regardless of how or by what means. To say the West cannot and should not impose its well on the region defies facts on the ground”.

    The KSA has a long history of good relations with the west, I think we can go as far as to say that… And I dont fully agree that the west installed rulers instead of occupying… literally to protect their Oil interests, far from it… Investments in to regions that were classed as Frontiers, of course had a Geo-Political investigation, Due Diligence is conducted, everyone wishes to know who it is they are going to be dealing with… The Oil is very important, of course it is, it is a life blood… However, it should not be the only artery. And it isnt… Saudi trillions are invested globally.. Engineering, construction, Leisure, Holiday complexes, Tourism, finance, banking, shipping, logistics, even nightclubs, wine bars, football clubs, motor racing, Universities, and a massive amount of other projects to boot… So the Middle East and Gulf States have a huge roll to play in reverse…..

    “Global economic interdependence, global warming, spread and threats of lethal Islamism ideology necessitate global solution which must be led by the West if catastrophic East-West conflict is to be averted”.

    Maybe it might be led by Israel considering IDF have arrived and landed with troops and military hardware on Saudi soil ready for an attack on Iran? And maybe why when Obama met King Suad recently and asked the King if it was true that Saudi had given Israel a corridor of Saudi airspace for a bombing raid on Iran and the King just waved the question away… See Nothing… Hear nothing.. Say nothing….. Policy….

    “Yes, Saudi women are responsible for their emancipation and as you correctly said, it won’t be easy, cheap or handed down on a gold platter”.

    The women already know this, hence why they are scared witless… to do anything…

    Have a good day…. speak soon…

  43. Marcus,

    I agree with you that the treatment of expatriates in the Gulf region is inhumane to say the least. Our center has worked diligently to highlight their plight which has been described as “modern form of slavery.”

    I will not participate in any discussion, good or bad, about Islam or any other religion because it’s useless, waste of time and lead to nowhere. I am aware of history and human fallibility including mine. I am also aware that the issues we are engaged in are politically, culturally, religiously and socially charged; therefore, require utmost self-restraint, objectivity and empathy.

    Civil debates can bring visionary and reasonable people together and help resolve difficult disputes even among the most sworn enemies. Procuring Saudi women’s human and natural rights is morally correct, but achieving it will have a positive impact on millions of Muslim women. Empowering Saudi women can undermine Islamists’ extremism and derail their deadly designs.

    This venue is designed to address specific issue which is worthy of everyone’s consideration. It should not be turned into a personal venting vehicle. Ali Alyami

    • Marcus

      Ali Alyami.
      Salaam, I hope I find you well and good and enjoying a wonderful day.

      Thank you for pointing out your Centre, I was not aware…

      You see Ali, with the greatest respect to one and all, the Life for a Muslim is guided, a full life set of rules.. Islam is political and thus, takes away the personal touch for sure, any other decision one makes as a Muslim must be according to Islam… It just gets more ridiculous the more I think about it. Ignoring these issues and Ostrich like behaviour wont sort out the problem… Open, honest, clear, concise, respectful, fair, balanced, transparent debate is a good way to clear up… and I thought that would be a good way for your Centre to take on boards maybe… Considering your view point that discussing these issues leads to nowhere… Well… You said it… How very odd… Shying away from the issues will get everyone nowhere… Therefore, no matter how charged the “arena”, one must, as you have shown, continue the debate respectfully…
      We seem to speak the same language until you reckon someone is using the blog as a venting vehicle as if to say someone is using the page for personal soap boxing.. lol….. of course its a venting vehicle, what else do you see it as???
      This is a blog where folk can come from across the world and debate the issues without fear of getting their posts pulled.. I hope ;) .. and vent their feelings about certain issues… thats one of the points… And one of the reasons why you are here also,… you are showing the world who you are, and your organisation where you state you fight for political reform, privatization and economic reform, women’s rights and religious freedom, , , but you wont discuss the roots to most of the issues we come here to debate.. If you are not happy discussing these issues, then dont bother is my suggestion Sir…. You indirectly assist the very processes you stand and fight against… Discuss it and get it out in the open… whats the problem? Dont be as frightened as all the women folk who have been so very brave as to speak out on here…
      You know it, Saudi woman knows it, most of the world knows it… The time is coming very soon to the KSA where the changes will bring prosperity, freedoms, harmony, peace and security…

      and I cant wait.. Arab women are gorgeous..
      come on girls… hurry the hell up…
      ;)

  44. A'idah

    According to Ali Alyami “This venue is designed to address specific issue which is worthy of everyone’s consideration. It should not be turned into a personal venting vehicle.”

    Ah, that usually means what “certain” people say is quite all right. However, if a point of view differs from that of those “certain” people, it gets censored out. Never mind if the facts are correct, especially if they are historically correct, the comments still get axed if they don’t jive with the smoke-and-mirrors version being put forth about the subject and its connection with religion and KSA. The constant refrain of, “that is not Islam” or, “you need to educate yourself,” despite the fact that all points are fully verifiable via passages from the Qur’an, ahadith, Islamic jurisprudence or historical documentation — is very telling.

    Marcus to Ali:

    “This is a blog where folk can come from across the world and debate the issues without fear of getting their posts pulled.. I hope …

    …but you wont discuss the roots to most of the issues we come here to debate…”

    EXACTLY!

    I don’t know about others, but I know for a fact that quite a few posts are censored not just on this blog, but on others as well e.g. in Arab News, al Jazeera, etc. if these begin to touch too much on the roots of the issues—that “whole way of life” or the government of KSA.

    As has been pointed out by a number of people, including Muslims, looking in the mirror and seeing the truth does not seem to be in the cards for “certain” people.

    The first step toward a cure is to admit that there is a problem.

    As long as a majority of Muslims are not willing to admit that the one, single, solitary link that connects ALL Muslims the world over to the less savory customs and deeds of the ummah is Islam, via the passages in the Qur’an, the ahadith, the sunna, etc., then there will never be change.

    Reformation, Renaissance and Enlightenment or — staying in the dark ages. That is a choice that only Muslims can make.

  45. With due respect to the respondents to my comment about the uselessness of making Islam the center of this discourse, let me point out that you missed my point. My point was, is and will continue to be that religion is a private belief and should be left to the individual to decide whether to believe or not. Islam should not be used as a political system or tool of governmental oppression as it has been for the last 14 and half century.

    The following posting by Marcus is an example of comments that do not enhance constructive dialogue aimed at promoting “… prosperity, freedoms, harmony, peace and security.” This is the venting that will lead nowhere other than strengthening the hands of absolute dictators who prey on their people in the name of defending Islam against its enemies.
    “Te oppression female Muslims endure whilst living under such vile repressive regimes has stemmed back many many many moons ago, since the day Mohammed took slaves, for sex… The greed has also rootes sdtemming this far back.. Mohammed and his men raided caravans, killing the men and taking captive the women for slavery and sex, and then looting the booty.. Greed… theft.. stealing… corruption… and continued through his life and to power…”
    This is an extraordinarily condescending comment. “The time is coming very soon to the KSA where the changes will bring prosperity, freedoms, harmony, peace and security… and I cant wait.. Arab women are gorgeous. come on girls… hurry the hell up…”
    I want to reiterate my earlier comment, I participated in this dialogue because it started with a posting by a Saudi woman whose right to travel by herself was being challenged by the Saudi authorizes. The aim of this dialogue as I understand it is promote human rights of Saudi women. Ali Alyami

  46. Alabdali

    All what we need is some human rights but this does not mean we have to detract the value from the holly Qur’an in order to give some legitimacy to our demand. Let us keep the holly Qur’an at mosques and go ahead toward changing the wrong concepts and habits that have been intentionally mixed with the islam and surrounded us as we are in prison. To achieve this, we must stop criticizing the religion itself but work together to   Restoration the real Islam which is definitely kidnapped, distorted, and took away from its true purpose by the radicals who look at the Islam from a small hole in the window.  

    Thanks
     

  47. “The women already know this, hence why they are scared witless… to do anything… ”

    Is this true and if so, how can we woman sitting outside of both country and religion be of help?

  48. A'idah

    We give, Ali.

    How do you propose that anyone in the non-Muslim world can help Saudi women and men attaint their God-given human rights?

    “I participated in this dialogue because it started with a posting by a Saudi woman whose right to travel by herself was being challenged by the Saudi authorizes. The aim of this dialogue as I understand it is promote human rights of Saudi women.” Ali Alyami

    Ali, your claim that Islam must be left out of the whole discussion is so much nonsense. Islam is at the center of this. Your denial of that fact what is unproductive.

    “Real” Islam, as Muhammad, his companions and followers practiced it is all about denying men, women and infidels their human rights. It is about world conquest and placing all peoples under the boot of “real” Islam. Those who do not want to accept Islam are forced to pay the Islamic protection tax—jizya or killed. Most people would say that those are mafia like tactics.

    Men can beat their wives according to the Qur’an. Jews are of “apes and pigs.” Muslims are not supposed to make friends with Christians and Jews. On and on it goes in hundreds of misanthropic, misogynistic passages. KSA, the birthplace of Islam, is the most repressive religious regime on the planet and everyone knows it. Unfortunately, Muslims are to chicken to admit it. To deny that religion has anything to do with the state of affairs in KSA and the rest of the Muslim world is to stick one’s head into the sand and deny the truth.

    A number of us have pointed out the hypocrisy of the Saudi woman who is well off, who can travel out of her Saudi prison and shop ‘til she drops in the free world. Most Muslims cannot do that.

    To promote human rights in KSA Saudi women like her must stop whining and complaining online and start DOING in the real world. Of course, that might mean that she would lose a great deal, as activist Wajeha al-Huwaider has done.

    Commitment requires sacrifice!

    The question is, do these spoiled Saudi women want their freedom and equality enough to sacrifice their personal well being for the good of their brothers and sisters in Islam?

    • “To promote human rights in KSA Saudi women like her must stop whining and complaining online and start DOING in the real world.”

      A’idah just a point. I am fairly new to this blog but I heard of it because the author was on Radio in Australia talking about the issues related to all these issues.

      I think this is activisim.

  49. A'idah

    leesis: “the author was on Radio in Australia talking about the issues related to all these issues.

    I think this is activisim.”

    Leesis, the point of my comment is that one does not see masses of women and their supportive men—hundreds of millions of them— fighting for their human rights and equality. A few people here and there on blogs or giving interviews in the west is not going to get very far against the religious establishment and the theocracy. Anything to do with the west will get these people bad press, very bad press.

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  51. sf

    Have fun and enjoy your vacation. They can send as many texts as they want, who cares?? It’s simply absurd how they have all this energy to do this rather than deal with issues that affect people daily in the kingdom.

  52. I hate being Saudi female

    Hi Eman;

    I rarely get the time to browse your blog but when I saw this post regarding the notice your husband received when you left the country, I just laughed with a bleeding heart. Believe me, your status is much more better than mine. I am a totally independent physician married to a typical Saudi man (BTW, I consider your husband not typical). He refuses to travel together and prevents me from traveling alone although I studied in UK alone for a while before I knew him. This is NOT all, he also prevent me from getting a net connection at home and I browse the internet only at work or when I visit my family. ooooooooh, I forgot something, he also controls my dress code. I really feel imprisoned. I am thinking seriously of getting divorce although I have been married only for 9 months now and expecting a baby.
    Thanks Eman for reading my comments and keep on dear.

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  63. H

    That is just lovely,,,

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  65. У меня на этаже есть уважаемый (в кавычках) сосед, который вздумал купить кухню. Он зовёт меня к себе домой спустя некоторое время после этой покупки. А захожу и просто впадаю в ступор – я ни разу не видел такой кухни в москве. В ней были собраны, на мой взгляд, самые основные положительные качества – она была красивой , не громоздкой и удобной . Какие вопросы приходят на ум сразу же? Разумеется я принялся выпытывать моего соседа о том, где он нашёл такую кухню и почём, хоть примерно. Кстати, хоть Вованчик (мой сосед) и был нормальным мужиком, но его ЭГОистическое чувство зависти и жадности знали все, кто когда-нибудь хоть раз с ним общался. Ясное дело, о покупке своей он мне ничего раскрыл. Тщетными оказались мои уговоры, намёки на соседскую дружбу и типичную человеческую рассудимость, на то, что уже давно соседи – молчит проклятый. Я так понял, что этому кретину его новинка дороже матери родной, когда он заявил, что желает иметь хоть что-то, чего нет у остальных людей.

    Сам я завистливым никогда не являлся. Мы с моей супругой всё никак не могли подыскать ничего подходящего, хотя желание купить новенькую мебель для кухни появилось у нас уже довольно давно. Такие проблемы с площадью наших квартир испытывают многие люди. Кухня очень маленькая, даже вдвоём там тесновато. Однако, как и всем, хочется чтобы и уютно , и комфортно , и стильно , и красиво было . Я супруге намекнул, что был у соседа нашего и видел там классную кухню, но он зараза молчит и не желает говорить, где раздобыл.

    Но вот один раз, лазая по сети в поисках радости, я наткнулся на фото точно такой же кухни. Обрадовался я конкретно. Я тут же хватаю мобильник, звоню, спрашиваю – это тут производят кухни на заказ? Через пара недель нашу кухню привезли к нам. Собрали, установили. Пошёл я звать того дебила соседского. Прикольнуться решил. Он когда пришёл, то от завести чуть не скончался. На его роже был гнев всех эсесовцев и горечь всех евреев на земле. Он похоже слегка обиделся и ушёл.

    C того дня уже прошло не мало времени, а у нас по-прежнему с ним “холодная” война. И главное из-за чего война? Из-за кухни, жесть. При этом между нами идёт односторонняя война, которая идёт в направлении меня. У меня к нему в принципе нет предъяв, а он меня, едва видит, так порвать готов. Так как он пожизни невменяем, то я даже свою тачку не паркую под окнами его.

    Теперь уже я уже подыскиваю новую кухню. И вот без понятия, как быть – если опять нечто аналогичное получится, то мы уже открыв двери на площадку, будем тапками швыряться друг в друга, а может чем-то и потяжелей. Поэтому, жажду что-то такое, что позволит обновить мой старый набор для кухни, который послужил на славу. Теперь вот мозги напрягаю сижу. Самое главное – чтобы не было одинаковой.

  66. Pingback: ExtremeCentre.org » En Arabie saoudite, le SMS qui agace les femmes (akbar brother is watching you): Blog Politique Francophone pour les Libertés Fondamentales et Contre Tous les Totalitarismes, qu'ils soient de Droite ou de Gauche

  67. jessica-expat

    hello

    Je suis expatrie en allemagne et j’aurai aime savoir si certains d’entre vous connaissent des lieux
    sympa pour se marrer a berlin.

    J’ai essaye pas mal de rades sans jamais m’y eclater.

    Je compte sur vous !
    PS: Si vous etes dans mon coin, pas de soucis pour se rencontrer !

    Merci.
    jess

  68. oppoloincipse

    Привет всем ! Я захотела расширить свой кругозор в мире интернета. Сейчас столько всяких блогов где создатели рассказывают про всякие интересности своих занятий, приводят советы как заработать деньги в интернете.Поделитесь пожалуйста ссылками ресурсов какие считаете полезными. Благодарю за подсказки.

  69. ktoki

    Привет! Приглащаю в Златоустинский чат http://ktoki.ru/zlatoust.html знакомств и общения. Встречи, выезд на природу, фотоальбомы и многое другое

  70. hilaryyb

    hi folks,
    I have a buddy who emailed a Wii points generator to me yesterday, but somesomehow all the codes are expired, first off, is it legal to useit?
    sorry if this ain’t the right place to request for this, i’m new to this nice community :)

  71. Новини автосвіту та спорту

  72. Continuing to exclude and deny women their basic human and natural rights, the autocratic and theocratic Saudi ruling men, their institutions and those who still believe that women have to be camouflaged in disfiguring black garment and behind high walls are committing crimes of disproportionate magnitude against the country, its progress, security and future.
    =================================

    http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article491430.ece

    Local press: Breaking down the social barriers
    By ABDULLAH AL-MOALLAMI | AL-MADINAH
    Published: Aug 20, 2011 23:24 Updated: Aug 20, 2011 23:24
    I am the woman … listen to me.
    Listen to the purr of my engine … it is starting.
    I am a woman fighting for the right, and I let the flag of the truth flutter high.
    I’m the woman … I know that you all love me, and at the same time worry about me.
    But today I break all the barriers that stifle my voice. That voice will never be muffled from now on, for my silence is the mark of my prison.
    I am the woman … Watch how fast I am on my course with scant regard for the power of the engine that I drive. Power is not the yardstick of this race.
    I am the woman … the Saudi woman … the Muslim woman … how often our mothers rode on the back of camels, horses or mules. But now I follow their tracks driving a four-wheeler with flashing tires.
    I am the woman … your sister … whom you have left weak and paralyzed to suffer harassments at the hands of a strange driver who knows more about me than you brothers do.
    I am the woman … Don’t make me cheap, subordinate and submissive, and don’t think I am ignorant or naïve and do not know what is good for me … Treat me well to prove your claim that I am your sister.
    I am the woman … I don’t compete with you … I don’t challenge you in anything. Each one of us has our separate roles, status and objectives.
    I am the woman … Don’t be afraid of me, don’t be anxious about me, I am an intelligent human being like you with two hands, two legs and two eyes and then why should you worry if I drive?
    I am the woman … capable of taking care of myself … no need for alarm. Where are my keys, please?
    These are lines from a poem written by a young Saudi woman. It is high time to take a clear stand on the issue of women driving. If it is religiously unlawful then forget about it. But, if it is an issue to be evaluated on its merits and demerits, as is the case with many other issues that we come across in our daily life, let us put the matter before our rulers.
    The members of the Shoura Council should rush to discuss the issue, draft regulations that protect the interests of society and pass it to the king.
    It is also time that writers and columnists, both men and women, end their heated debates, stop exaggerating and using a tone of intimidation so that those who are striving for a solution have a peaceful and balanced environment to work in.
    One word to the men, whom I call “the campaigners of Iqal (men’s headband).”
    Manhood does not mean threatening your women with promises to strike them with your Iqals or mocking them when they demand their rights, including the right to drive.
    On the other hand, manhood involves dealing firmly with the men who harm or harass women whether they are behind the wheel or in the backseat of a car.

  73. 03/اكتوبر/2011
    Center for Democracy and Human Rights in Saudi Arabia-Washington, DC
    http://www.cdhr.info
    ما لا يقال عن قرار السماح للمرأة السعودية بالمشاركة في مجلس الشورى والانتخابات البلدية

    تحليل مركز الديمقراطية وحقوق الإنسان – واشنطن

    في 25/سبتمبر/ 2011 ألقى الملك عبد الله خطابا أعلن فيه السماح للسعوديات بالمشاركة في مجلس الشورى والترشح والتصويت لانتخابات المجالس البلدية القادمة. وقد حظي الخطاب بدعم محلي وعالمي بالرغم من أن الملك لم يوضح آليات وضمانات تطبيق هذا القرار الذي لم يغير في واقع المرأة السعودية شيئا فهي لا تزال تعتبر مواطنة من الدرجة الثانية ومحرومة من حقوقها الطبيعية والإنسانية التي كفلتها لها المواثيق والمعاهدات الدولية التي وقعت عليها السعودية.

    لقد تسببت عوامل كثيرة في صدور قرار الملك عبد الله ومن أبرزها المطالبات المتكررة للنساء بحقهن في قيادة السيارات وهي الحملة التي شدت انتباه وسائل الإعلام العالمية بعد أن تحدت السعوديات الحظر المفروض على المرأة وبدأن في قيادة مركباتهن، الأمر الذي كشف مدى قساوة التمييز ضد المرأة في السعودية لوسائل الإعلام العالمية. والأهم من ذلك هو أن تزايد أعداد المؤيدين والمتضامنين مع المرأة في حقها في قيادة السيارة من رجال ونساء داخل المملكة أربك السلطات لأن أكثر ما تخشاه هو أن يتحد الشعب للمطالبة بحقوقه الشرعية فقد اعتمدت العائلة المالكة في بقائها في الحكم منذ البدايه وحتى الآن على تفرقة الشعب وتقسيمه حتى يسهل التحكم فيه.

    ومن العوامل الأخرى التي أجبرت السلطات على إصدار القرار الملكي عامل الثورات العربية التي اندلعت احتجاجا على الظلم والقمع والفساد وبسبب استئثار أسر معينة ومقربون لهم على الحكم وتقديم مصالحهم الخاصة على مصالح الشعب فقد شعرت السلطات السعودية بالقلق من أن يثور الشعب لتحقيق مطالبه التي لا تخلتف عن مطالب الشعوب العربية الثائرة. كما ساهم تأييد أميرات من العائلة المالكة لبعض مطالب الشعب في صدور القرار كالأميرة بسمة بنت سعود التي اشتهرت بانتقاد الفساد وتوجيه انتقادات لاذعة إلى المسؤولين وإلى المؤسسة الدينية، بالإضافة أيضا إلى كلا من الأميرة عادلة وصيته (ابنتا الملك عبد الله) والأميرة أميرة الطويل اللواتي عرفن بمساندة قضايا المرأة في السعودية.

    إن المشكلة في القرار الملكي تكمن في أنه لم يلامس القضايا الحقيقة والمشاكل الأساسية للمرأة في السعودية، وفي أنه لا يمكن ضمان تنفيذه فبإمكان الملك أو من سيخلفه إلغاؤه في أي لحظة كما حدث في عام 2005 عندما أعلنت السلطات أن المرأة السعودية ستشارك في انتخابات المجالس البلدية التالية إلا أنها مُنعت من المشاركة في الانتخابات الحالية والتي كان من المفترض أن تُنظم في عام 2009 إلا أن الملك أعلن تأجيلها إلى 2011، بالإضافة لعدم وجود مؤسسات مستقلة في الدولة تصدر القوانين وتضمن تطبيقها.

    ولا يقتصر الأمر على الأسباب المذكورة أعلاه فقط بل أبعد من ذلك، فمجلس الشورى مجلس صوري ليس له أي صلاحيات تشريعية يختار الملك أعضاءه الذين يقتصر دورهم على تقديم التوصيات. ولا يختلف وضع المجالس البلدية كثيرا عن الشورى، فنصف أعضاء هذه المجالس يتم اختيارهم أيضا ويقتصر عملهم على جمع الشكاوى ورفعها إلى المسؤولين.

    إن الحديث عن حقوق سياسية للمرأة في دولة بلا مؤسسات مستقلة ولا يشارك الشعب في اختيار ممثليه ومساءلتهم ولا في تحديد سياسة الدولة يعد من الترف خاصة في وضع كوضع المرأة السعودية المحرومة من حقوقها الطبيعية، فهي قاصر في عين القضاء ومحرومة من العمل في العديد من المجالات وتحتاج إلى موافقة ولي الأمر عند التنقل أو العمل ولا يُسمح لها حتى بقيادة سيارتها كما تفعل النساء في كل دول العالم.

    والسؤال الذي يطرح نفسه الآن هو: أليس من المنطق أن يصاحب قرار منح المرأة حقوقها السياسية قرار منحها حقوقها الطبيعية والإنسانية بإلغاء نظام المحرم والإعتراف بها كإنسانة كاملة الأهلية وقادرة على إدارة شؤونها بدون تدخل أحد لأنها وحتى تؤدي واجباتها السياسية على أكمل وجه لابد أن تكون مستقلة وقادرة على اتخاذ قراراتها بنفسها دون الحاجة إلى الرجوع إلى أحد

  74. HaleHoadorn

    У меня была очень простая и банальная проблема. Но меня она гложила так, что просто жить не хотелось. призвали в армию. Отслужил. моя пассия меня не дождалась. Но дело тут не в какой то любви или отношениях, я ее знаю со школьной скамьи это мой родной человек. поговорили с ней, я ей сказал что я все прощу только вернись, но дело тут было сложнее = она влюбилась. Я поискал в интернете магов и из всей кучи шарлатанов или магов которые стригут бабло нашел того кто действительно вник в мою проблоему и дал много советов. Это был Александр Цынь. АПлюнул я и на себя и на мое Я и заказ приворот на себя, просто так. Она вернулась ко мне за неделю. Антон, Киев.

  75. legeIcono

    Приворот – магическое оружие любви
    Любовь, как известно, зла, полюбишь и… того, кто даже не хочет смотреть в твою сторону. Но ведь человек рожден для счастья и страдать от безответной любви не только не обязательно, но даже и преступно. Тем более, что на помощь всегда готова придти магия и такое ее оружие, как приворот.

    Эти ритуалы известны давно и существует их великое множество, но когда влюблен, конечно же, хочется, чтобы выбранное тобой средство было самым сильным.

    Черное венчание
    Черное венчание – это не только один из самых сильных, но еще и загадочных магических ритуалов. О нем слышал каждый, кто интересуется приворотной магией, но почти никто не знает, как его проводить на практике. И это не удивительно, ведь поскольку средство это обладает мощнейшим эффектом воздействия, тот, кто действительно владеет его секретом, никогда не откроет его постороннему.

    Этот ритуал способен пробудить в человеке, на которого он направлен, такие сильные чувства, которые могут даже превзойти чувства того, кто обратился к услугам черной магии, а по продолжительности действие приворота может длиться всю жизнь. Это обстоятельство накладывает на человека, решившегося на такой шаг, особую ответственность – нужно все обдумать, оценить глубину собственных чувств. Если вы уверены, что влечение не угаснет на следующий день после одержанной победы, тогда смело действуйте. Но если нет – лучше воздержитесь.

    Черная или белая магия?
    Черные привороты, к числу которых относится и черное венчание, считаются самыми эффективными, но обращаться к ним опасно, так как тем самым можно пробудить слишком сильные темные силы, в результате чего на жизненном пути обоих сторон приворота появятся опасные повороты судьбы – болезни и неудачи. Если вы не готовы к таким последствиям, лучше обратиться к белой магии, в которой существуют не менее сильные и эффективные привороты, не влекущие негативных последствий. Один из них –сильный приворот. В своей практике я применяю именно свои обряды – это не заклинания или отвары и проче… – это сильное энергетическое воздействие на человека. Сам обряд делается исключительно по фото (если исключения, но это индивидуально).

    Самое главное помните, если обращаетесь к настоящему профессионалу, то независимо от того – черная это или белая магия – негативных последствий нет. Люди пишущие в книгах или интернете о негативных последствия скорее сами проводили подобные ритуалы и естественно безуспешно, плюс навели на себя негатив. Об этом более подробно можно прочесть на моем сайте в разделе статей.

    Сильный приворот – результат без побочных эффектов
    Сильный приворот оказывает воздействие на все сферы человека: эмоциональную и сексуальную и хотя по силе воздействия и эффективности результатов он не уступает черному венчанию.

    Результат в виде любовного томления начинает проявляться уже через несколько дней, а иногда на следующие сутки после обряда.

    Приворот по фото – веяние современности
    В те времена, когда зародилось искусство приворотов никто слыхом не слыхивал о фотографиях, поэтому в большинстве классических ритуалов она не используется. Однако, современные маги нашли способ приобщить это благо цивилизации к своей деятельности. Ведь в энергетическим смысле фото является точной копией человека, при этом между ними существует обратная связь и поэтому то, что происходит с фото, отражается и на реальном человеке.

    Сегодня приворот по фото – столь же эффективное средство, по силе сравнимое с черным венчанием или сильным приворотом. Боле того, фото помогает магу сформировать в своем сознании образ человека, на которого направлен приворот, и это, безусловно усиливает его эффективность.

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  84. SergJeds

    Есть продуктовый магазин на две кассы. Весь товароучет ведется в 1с.
    Какую кассовая программу посоветуете?

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