Palestine/Israel Documentary

This was orginally posted Jan/3rd 2009

Yesterday on CNN the Israeli ambassador to the US tried to lump all Muslims together with a common purpose of terrorizing humanity. He said that we (as in everyone else but Muslims) in Gaza are fighting a war against terrorism just like the hotel bombings in Mumbai. For the record, there is as much in common with a Pakistani Muslim and an Arab Muslim as there is in common between an Italian Catholic and an American Protestant. In general they have the same religion but both pairs don’t speak the same language and definitely don’t come from the same historical and political background. But I guess the ambassador at least acknowledges that the ignorant west has made some progress since he didn’t say we are all against the orientals.

What does Intifada mean? The news networks use these terms and non-Arabic speakers assume they mean kill all Jews or Bomb everyone for the hell of it when it really means shake off as in shaking off the occupation of Palestine by Israel. I remember reading a comment once written by an American Christian woman where she was showing her support for Israel and she wrote that she’s read about Muslims and how lying is part of our religion and we call that hudna. What?! I’m a born and bred Muslim and the only thing that I’ve been taught about lying is that it is haram (prohibited) and children are always told that if you lie you go to hell. And hudna means truce, so where’s the link?

An average American’s experience of so called Islamic terrorism is 9/11 and 15 of the 19 involved were Saudis. The way it is depicted in the media is that those Saudis just out of the blue grew pure hatred towards the US and decided that they would sacrifice their lives (many of which were promising) to succumb to that hatred. Yes I know Americans are infamous for their arrogance and self-centeredness but come on we don’t care that much about them. What pushed those Saudis to do such a thing is the USA’s unwavering commitment and support for Israel. A commitment that has supplied Israel with billions of dollars worth of army supplies to conduct an ethnic cleansing of Palestine. And Palestine matters to Saudi in the same way that Texas matters to Kansas. Just a little more than a century ago we were one country under Ottoman rule.

To learn more you can watch this video. The whole thing is essential in understanding the Middle-East crisis but if you don’t have to time then start watching from minute 51:20 to learn about the USA’s role in the crisis.

221 responses to “Palestine/Israel Documentary

  1. Noor

    Crush humanity out of shape, and it will twist itself into the same tortured forms. the occupation needs to end now!

    • Sam

      I Agree But Palestinians should also Unite and Not have 2 or More Policy’s, Palestinian Fanatics and My Israeli Fanatics Help Each Other. Israeli’s and Palestinians are staying here and there can be Peace Sooner than Later.

    • Kit

      I fully agree……the Arab made refugees need to get off occupied lands.

      Samaria & Judea will always be Jewish lands. There is no justified claim by Arabs or especially muslims to these lands.

      Best if they go paradise, as they embrace death as we embrace life. A plan that works for both sides.

      Israel is on the front lines of Islamic imperialistic expansion. The Arabs with 300 million hostile muslims already control 95% of the Middle Eastern lands & they desire the 5% controlled by the infinitely superior Jews with only 5.5 million people. How pathetic are these Arabs & muslims?

      • Guy

        Kit:

        Your attitude is ignorant and offensive. No wonder we’ve got the problems in the Middle East that we have.

      • Chiara

        Hate brings hate. Generalisation is wrong, I guess? Not all Jewish are killers and not all Muslims are terrorists. It is interesting to see the US media coverage though.

        BTW: Does anybody know if there has been a similar report that shows the propaganda from the other side? I know MEMRI has published a few videos and interviews but any videos/documents on anti-Israel (anti-Zion) propaganda from Arabic side(s)? That would help me with my research. Thanks!!!

  2. Hi Eman… as usual, your insight is enlightening. Where can I download a copy of this documentary for myself?

  3. my name is faduma

    Irsrael is very evoil peaple .that is way higler kill tham all .and i hoop amereca will be sacand plastina

    • Jgirl

      Get an education then come back and join us with something interesting to say! :)

    • Nicolas

      Palestinians, just wake up for the fuck’s sake! Jews are making an economic progress on your right fucking home soil. Take advantage of that and prosper!

      Why make all the difficulties to Jews? If no terrorism was imposed in Israeli long ago, you all would be sitting next to each other on the same table and prosper. You all might be even neighbors.

      No muslim nations want you, Palestinians, and they could give less a rat’s fart about about it. They are using you and Israeli to fuel their religion’s “Jihad” cause. You, Palestinians, don’t mean a squat to Muslims.

      Uneducated ignorants are what’s wrong with everything on this planet.

      Oppressions are because of no education.

      No education = sheep everywhere

  4. Marco Guerzoni

    You know what makes me wondering? this kind of transnational islamic brotherhood. Does it really exist? Does a rich Saudi care about the poor palestianian?
    my best regards
    Marco

    • ovidiu pavel

      yes, as it pumps money into the Palestinian Authority
      no, as it never granted citizenship to the palestinian refugees living in Saudi even as early as ’48 (such as no other moslem nation has granted citizenship to palestinians – except perhaps for isolated cases)

  5. Usman

    “And Palestine matters to Saudi in the same way that Texas matters to Kansas”

    OK, provide me some link showing the rich and influential brother KSA genuinely helping it’s brother Palestine getting out of misery.

  6. jennifer

    Where is all of the money that the US government sends to the Palestinians?? We send billions of dollars to the Palestinians every year, and where did the money go??…into the greedy hands of their leaders, but then blame Israel for all of their problems! Isreal has a thriving tech high market despite the bombs falling around them…..the Palestinians will NEVER thrive as long as they blames everyone else for their problems…..

    • Prove it. Where are these billions you claim are sent every year to Palestinians?

      • Sam

        Yes Money is going to West Bank and Food etc… to Gaza.
        Trouble is that in Israel the Rich are Getting Very Rich and Poor much Poorer, Including Israeli Arabs of Palestinian Background.

      • gcr

        Wow, you really don’t know what is going on in the world. Or seem to know much about the Medina side of your prophet. Peaceful????

        for example
        ‘In December 2007, during the Paris Donor Conference, which followed the Annapolis Conference, the international community pledged over $7.7 billion for 2008–2010 in support of the Palestinian Reform and Development Program (PRDP).’

        ‘international conference took place in Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt, where donors pledged almost $4.5 billion’
        They get billions.

      • Marcus

        Saudi woman,
        salaam walaikum.
        I hope you are well.
        I would like to say, please, do some research, you are being found out quite clearly and your lack of education on such subjects only embarrass yourself. This is only meant with the greatest respect to you.
        have a good day.. And… If what we do each day is done with goodness and love as its driving force, then we wont go far wrong.

      • Factimus Prime

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
        $1.04 Billion in 2009 to Gaza/West Bank

      • The billions are in the private bank accounts of such luminaries as Yassir Arafat’s widow. The Palestinians are in the mess they are in not because of the Israelis, but because of their so called leaders who continue to blow it. If you go to google, and type in Arafat’s Billions, you will come up with numerous articles/facts to show you just want he did with this money. Here is just one. I know it’s from the American media which you will probably want to discredit so go ahead and search the British, the French, the Italian etc. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,995651,00.html
        And thanks to Arafat, that’s why the European Union got smart and stopped sending so much money. It all got squandered or stashed away in Switzerland.

    • Kit

      Time to INCREASE the money given to Israel & STOP all monies from going to the Arab refugees, created by the Arabs.

      Let the Wahabbi leadership use the infidel oil money to support it’s neighbor, though it’s enlightening that even Egypt seals it’s border with these islamic nutjobs.

      Israel is on the front lines of Islamic expansion & any claim to their land by muslims is mythical. Let all muslims go back to the Arabian peninsula & camp out around Mecca.

      The fastest solution is to rename Jordan, Palestine, & poof, they have a state. This land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire for around 400 years, so it’s in fact the Arabs that are on occupied lands!

      Time too for the Saud Kingdom to go away & put the control to the majority, though now the majority in Arabia is hired labor, as the Arabians are to lazy, arrogant & self centered to lower themselves to actually work.

      How much money does Arabia give the refugees in Gaza? Prove it.

      Saudiwoman, I like your other posts, but on this one you drank to much of the koolaid & believe the lies & propaganda of hate that the Saud’s push. You need to take your medication for the mind virus of Islam.

      Islam is the cause of poverty, lack of education & it’s backwardness the last 1,000 years. Hence why NOTHING has come out of the middle east these last 1,000 years that benefit humanity, except the gift of Islam. Such a deal?

      The Americans are on Israel side, because of the genocide done to the Jews during WWII…this will NOT be allowed to ever happen again.

      • John

        Kit,
        You know so little! Take the time to read a little Ibn Khaldun to see how much Arab culture has given to the West.
        You just need to go to high school and learn some history. Perhaps you will stop saying things like this:

        “This land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire for around 400 years, so it’s in fact the Arabs that are on occupied lands!”

        Ignorance never helps a conversation.

      • Kit

        John: Everyone is entitled their opinions, but no one is entitled to the wrong facts, right?

        Any your qualified to judge my history, which is based on what?

        Do tell how the backasswards culture of the Arab bedouin tribes in any advancement of Western Societies. Give me examples & then give me examples how this “culture” of ignorance contributed to humankind in the last 1,000 years. And don’t count the “gift” of Islam.

        Dazzle me with your vast knowledge of Middle Eastern history & how these Arabian created refugees have any claim on the whole of British mandated “Palestine” lands.

      • John

        “Give me examples & then give me examples how this “culture” of ignorance contributed to humankind in the last 1,000 years.”

        It seems that you want to learn, but I don’t teach for free (I have, however, given you a precious bibliographical indication in the previous post). You should check the listing of the continuing education programs in your area and enroll in a western civilization class. You will find the answers you are seeking and you will live a better life without the scary Muslim bogeymen you are imagining.

      • Kit

        John, you wiggle more a muslim. Though I’m not surprised, as they are NO examples of Islamic or muslim contribution to humankind in the last 1,000 years….how the last 500 years…or even the last 100 years?

        Wiggle some more as you can’t come up with one example.

        So why do muslims HATE SO MUCH?

        WHY MUSLIMS HATE & WHY THEY FLOCK TO WESTERN SOCIETIES.

        They must be stopped. By Brigitte Gabriel

        “Envy and resentment of the West’s material, intellectual, scientific, and economic superiority–in vivid contrast to the squalor, illiteracy, and oppression that mark so much of the Muslim world-are no small factors in this resentment and hatred toward the infidel West. It is this list of grievances that drives the neo-jihadist declaration of WAR.

        The drive for global conquest, a never-ending jihad, and the subjugation of infidels are inherent to Islam itself, and are found in core Islamic theological and legal traditions. Although these ideas are not adhered to by all Muslims, they are primary motivations of the radicals”.

        Does that about sum it up?

        So how long have you been a dhimmi?

      • Kit

        John….thanks for the one claim to Islamic or muslim contribution by using Ibn Khaldun. He was born in North Africa….Ibn claims to have traced his lineage to a tribe in Yemen (and a fine place today), though biographer Mohammad Enan questions his claim, suggesting that his family may have been Berbers who pretended to be of Arab origin in order to gain social status.[23] According to Muhammad Hozien, “The false [Berber] identity would be valid however at the time that Ibn Khaldun’s ancestors left Andalusia and moved to Tunisia they did not change their claim to Arab ancestry”.

        What else you got?

        Though your aware that “science” was forfeited for faith around 1,100 CE & the muslims NEVER looked back. Tell me more how the totalitarian political authoritative ideology of Islam is superior & how it’s been working in modern times?

      • While Europe was in the dark ages and all women were considered property, the Muslim world gave them most of their rights. Women in the Arab world owned land and businesses. There were even women warriors. And here you’ll find just a taste of how many scientists and scholars we had http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_scientists_and_scholars.

      • Alexandra

        And since Islam women have been subjugated under the boot of Islam as never before in history. You know very well that women in the Islamic world have NEVER had equal rights, not even Aisha had those. The veil began with her.

      • Sar

        Dear Kit,

        If you’re going to rage on muslims or arabs ,which for you is the same thing, don’t start spitting nonsensical things. I have a few things to point out.
        Where do our numbers come from? 1234567890? They’re ARABIC. The roman script didn’t have a zero. Also, a lot of our modern science comes from arabic culture. The arabs made a lot of discoveries in maths, physics, astronomy, medicine and they’re the ones who kept and translated ancient greek scrolls. The muslims may have even played a role in triggering the age of enlightenment, the foundation of our modern western culture. So how have they not given anything these past thousand years?
        Besides, Turkish people (or people from the Ottoman Empire) are NOT Arabs, they’re ottoman muslims. That’s not the same thing. Persians aren’t arabs either. So don’t generalize.
        Look, I’m not siding with anyone here (Arabs, Muslims, Jews, Christians whatever), but please get your facts straight.

      • Guy

        Hmmm. And the Arabs should pay the price for european extermination by losing their lands, their homes, their freedom? Come off it; it’s oil, isn’t it?

        Trouble is, you’re a bit of a Nazi yourself, aren’t you?

      • Screw Kit

        KIT, just F.O !

      • Someone

        Israel has become the monster it once feared. The Jewish people were slaughtered during WWII, and it is totally unacceptable, but does that mean they can do the same to the Palestinians, who HAVE been living their longer than their has been the State of Israel. So your comment on why America has sided with Israel makes no sense. And actually inventions that have come out of the Arab world include the Alphabet, all Abrahamic religions, the marching band, the first missile, and coffee, so stop it with your foolishness and research before you write stupid comments like that.

      • Someone

        I still do not understand how Israel gets away with murder. They forged EU passports and tortured and murdered a Hamas leader in Dubai. Actually there is an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu for murder. They also slaughtered six activists onboard a flotillia headed for gaza to supply humanitarian aid. They boarded the ships in international waters, not Israeli, and nine activists were killed while resisting what under international law is piracy. The only reason they get away with it is the guilt factor. You think Israel would learn from being a victim of violence

    • Usman

      Just a gimmick!

      US-Israel are two sides of a coin.

      • John

        Israel and the US are friends and there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is that the right of Palestinians to have their own independent state and have enough resources to support themselves has been denied for too long. Politics has to come back and solve the problem. To say that nothing will ever change only helps those who don’t want to change. We need change and we must support it, even when we are skeptical.

      • Kit

        John, again you seem confused on the history of the Arab refugee & Israel snafu.

        First off there NEVER was a country named Palestine, NEVER was a Government, NEVER a people the went by this name before 1967. This was invented by Arafat, WHO WAS EGYPTIAN!

        The refugees were MADE by the Arabs & why the British & French dropped the ball after WWII is a shocker today.

        Maybe it’s fitting when Europe allowed 6 million Jews to be killed by the Germans, and a lost of these PRODUCTIVE & talented people, and replaced with 20 million welfare seeking WORTHLESS MUSLIMS the last 30 years!

        The USA support should ONLY be for a democratic society, and NEVER any support for a dictatorial “Kingdom” of any kind!

      • Alicia

        @kit. Recognizing this is an old conversation, I own a 1940′s era U.S. map that clearly labels “Palestine” where Israel now is.

      • Michael

        Alicia,

        having a map that says ‘Palestine’ on in doesn’t prove anything. I have a map of the U.S that says “new England” on it and where Texas is a seperate state and California is a part of Mexico and another map of Asia where India, Bangladesh, Sri lanka and Pakistan are one country and Tibet is free but times change… Call it Israel or Palestine, it makes no difference it’s the same geographic location…

  7. Omaima

    Ms. Eman ..
    history proves that women were considered as property and sexual obejects in the arab world too..
    and in some arab countries women are still treated as property till now !!!
    just recently they allowed women to have their own ID.. !!
    وسالفة المحرم هاذي لما تنتقل ملكيتك من ابوك ل زوجك لـ ابنك لامادري شنوو
    ايش تسمي هاذي؟
    و بعدين التاريخ اثبت انو العرب كان حتى الاب لما يموت يورث الجارايات و زوجاته لا ابنائه!!!

    ——
    مافي احد يتغلب على العرب في المسأله هاذي!!

  8. Alexandra

    The common link for all Muslims is the Qur’an, for many also the ahadith and the sunnah. As long as that is the case, it matters not what different cultures that Muslims come from, the cohesive thread is Islam. That is clear to everyone who knows anything about Islam, but protesting Muslims.

  9. Lisa

    I am so glad that I found your blog, and I look forward to returning when I have more time to spend here. In your own way you are building one of the bridges this world desperately needs to help us see that we are far more alike than we are different. I live in the U.S. and I try to be enlightened: to understand others by imagining what it would be like to walk a mile in their shoes. I look forward to walking several miles here with you.
    In peace,
    Lisa

  10. Michael

    The song at the beginning is Armenian Daduk
    Beautiful sound! Anyway in regards to your doc. you do a god job as summing up the current situation but forget to bring up Jordanian and Egyptian complicity and responsibility in the whole affair. After all, Jordan refused to give the Palestinians a state when the West Bank was under their control. Egypt is also a part of the blockade on Gaza… You point the finger only at Israel. When the fact is that none of the countries where Palestinians live (Jordan is over %70 Palestinian) have granted theme equal rights!

    • Where do you get your statistics from? Netanyahu’s office? And either way Jordan is for Jordanians and not Palestinians. According to your Zionist perverted logic there would be nothing wrong about having all Portuguese becoming Spanish citizens and giving Portugal to anyone who claims God promised it to them?!
      If you are truly ignorant I suggest you read this recent opinion piece http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/07/2010748131864654.html , but if you’re just another another monstrous person hell bent on ethnically cleansing Palestine just don’t comment here.

      • Michael

        Hmmmm… Well you have very strong opinions.

        Historically Portugal was a part of Spain, it was separated by a king who split his kingdom between his two sons. So your analogy is ironic in that, yes, in fact, I would see it as perfectly logical for Spain and Portugal to reunite if they wanted to.

        And this is also a good analogy for what happened in Palestine, where the British promised land to both the Jews and the Arabs and then divided it as they saw fit.

        I am extremely well versed in both the history and present situation in the Middle East and I was just pointing out that your documentary is very one sided.

        It puts the blame on Israel without examining the deeper causes of the conflict. I was not denying the suffering of Palestinians or saying that Israel is right to bombard or kill anyone. I agree that the State of Israel has committed some serious human rights violations. (As has Saudi Arabia, The United States, China, Russia and even my country, Canada) I was just trying to give an honest appraisal of your film and I pointed out its weakness – That being, it is not fair to both sides.

        The fact that you accuse me of wanting to commit genocide and of being a Zionist shows that you are insecure in your own point of view. Or simply too dogmatic and full of hatred towards Israel to see the other side of the story.

        The British Palestine Mandate included Jordan, The West Bank, Gaza Strip (or Judea and Sumeria if you will) and what is now Israel.

        Technically Jordan is a part of what is geographically speaking “Palestine” and the Jordanian Royal family is of Saudi (not Jordanian) origin (you should know this).
        The majority of Jordanians are not Hashemite but Palestinian.

        The Jordanian Royal Family (who have friendly ties with Israel as is the Saudi one) were brought to rule over Jordan by the British.

        The PLO considered Jordan to be a part of Palestine. This is why the King of Jordan slaughtered thousands of Palestinians in Black September. أيلول الأسود Because the PLO was fighting for the creation of a Palestinian state that included Jordan and what was then the Jordanian controlled West Bank.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

        The fact that Egypt is complicit in the blockade of Gaza is undeniable as is the complicity of every Arab nation which refuses to give Palestinians Passports and forces them to live in ghettos which are as bad if not worse than the Gaza strip. (This includes Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan)… Try making a documentary about that, It will be more original….

        If the real agenda here is not to help the Palestinians but to destroy Israel then fine but if you consider yourself to be a true humanitarian you should be looking for solutions without pointing the finger only at Israel. As with everything there were and still are many different players in this game. Many of these players are neither Palestinian nor Israeli

        Remember that every time you point a finger you have 3 of your own fingers pointing back at you.

        Jews and Arabs are brothers and sisters.

        Peace.

  11. Lisa

    Michael – is the U.S. complicit in the suffering of Mexicans? We refuse to give them passports to permit them to live in the U.S.? After all they too are “Americans” as are you and I. Your comment reflects a widespread ignorance of the ethnic, linguistic and genetic differences between indigenous Palestinians and other Arabs. To say that their Arab brothers should take them in and that they should just leave and go live in other Arab countries is incredibly ethnocentric as well as colonial.

    I do agree with you that the Jews and Palestinians are related – they are cousins and share common ancestors. However the indigenous Palestinians clung to the land during the “Diaspora”; they are the rightful inhabitants and inheritors of their land and it is time to rectify the unbearable wrong brought upon these people by the British Mandate. How can it be that the world has long since thrown off colonialism and acknowledged the rights of indigenous peoples to self-determination – except in Palestine? It is too late to undo the division of Palestine, but it is not too late to re-define the country into two autonomous countries – each with its own contiguous and defensible borders (read Israel will need to give up its illegal expansion and encroachments into Palestinian lands). If we are to legitimize the “British Mandate” and the U.N. creation of Israel then we must insist upon the creation of Palestine or we can recognize neither.

    • Michael

      Liza, First of all, yes of course the U.S is complicit in the suffering of Mexicans.

      Many of the southern states and California used to be a part of Mexico. Since Mexico lost a war with the U.S (a war that I guess you never learned about in grade school) it has been impoverished and many Mexicans have lived as second class citizens in what was once a part of Mexico.

      Today Anti-Mexican legislation is being introduced by the republican Government in Arizona. (Ironic how you accuse me of ignorance while using bad analogies that only prove your own lack of education)…

      I’m not saying the Palestinians should all pack up and move to other parts of the middle east. What I said is that Palestinians have been denied passports as well as entry and refuge in countries that claim to support them. (All these countries really support is, the Palestinians staying where they are and fighting Israel).

      The concept of a “Palestinian people” is a product of the British Palestine mandate, the eviction of Palestinian families by absentee landlords who sold to the Zionists and Pan-Arab nationalism.

      In as much as Israel and the idea of a modern Jewish state is a result of the Holocaust in Europe and the expulsion of Jews from many other parts of the world. (Zionism as a concept had been around for a while but never really became popular until mass oppression of the Jews reached a peak worldwide).

      As far as Jordan is concerned there is a wealth of proof to back up my position.

      “Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of the West Bank, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…”

      ‘We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.’ Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959

      ‘Palestine and Transjordan are one.’ King Abdullah, Arab League meeting in Cairo, 12 April 1948

      ‘Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.’ Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

      ‘Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.’ Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

      ‘The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’ King Hussein 1981

      “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

      For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” Palestinian politician, Zouhair Moussein 1977.

      Evidently your pre-school deprived menial mind will dismiss all this as the rantings of “Another monstrous person hell bent on ethnically cleansing Palestine.” But think about if for a while, do your reading (assuming it doesn’t make your head hurt too much) and come back with some facts for me.

      I’m not saying that Jordan should be renamed Palestine and that Palestinians should move there (as some in the Israeli right wing, many Republican politicians in the U.S and most recently far right politician Geert Wilders in Holland have proposed) but I am saying that both sides are responsible for this mess and that there is a Palestinian Majority in Jordan (which is part of geographical Palestine as defined by the mandate). Just as there are Palestinian refugee camps all over the middle east where aid is minimal and refugees are not given sanctuary.

      I would like to make clear that I do not sanction of the manner in which the Zionists bought the deeds to Palestinian land from absentee landlords and then evicted them. Nor do I approve of every action Israel makes, but I do understand their perspective (as it seems you do not).

      I also understand that Israel as well as the British, the Jordanian Royal Family, the Lebanese, The Egyptians, The Syrians, Hamas and Hezbollah have all conducted massacres on the Palestinians.

      They are not just victims at the hands of “evil Zionists” they are subject to the cruel whims of internal conflicts in the region as well as the interests of many foreign governments.

      No one is accepting them (the Palestinians) in Israel or the Arab world because they are being used as a human pawn in a game that is out of their hands and generally not in their interest.

      • “pre-school deprived menial mind” how classy.
        What you don’t understand is that I live this. A person living in the region is different from someone on another continent relying on history books and media for information. Palestinians are welcome everywhere. Many many Saudis are of Palestinian origin who came here first as refugees. As you yourself claimed in the first comment 70% of Jordan are Palestinians. I doubt the number but it shows that all Arab countries have tried to help as much as possible. Even Egypt despite of it’s official position, everyone knows that on the ground it’s the life line that’s keeping Gazan Palestinians above water. Regarding the Jordanian quotes you mentioned above, they were meant metaphorically that we stand behind Palestine not that they are one and the same. Palestinians have been on this land now occupied by Israel since Biblical times and in Arabic it’s pronounced Philistine which is mentioned in the Bible. They never left or were “invented”. Zionism is a racist ethnic cleansing movement which the West feeds, especially the USA. As neighboring Arab countries we are handicapped until the conflict is resolved. We have all seen the maps that Zionists drew of the land they want which takes all of Jordan, East Syria, North of Saudi, East Iraq and North East Egypt. Israel according to Herzl, founder of Zionism
        We cannot move forward as a civilization with this threat and we cannot trust the rest of the world because we know the skewed image that Zionists have made of the conflict and how the rest of the world believes them. This is what is giving Fundamental Islamist power. Orientalism and Colonization and now the much more violent and extreme Zionism has borne this “us versus them” stream of thought which people like Al Qaeda use to recruit terrorists. The west was wrong in supporting the creation of a country that never existed beyond God’s “promise” and they are maintaining this wrong by being extremely bias in their support for Israel not only financially and with weapons but worse by lying about why things are the way they are and how they are on the ground.

  12. Lisa

    Kit – before you call anyone ignorant you should try to learn a little grammar – your is a pronoun – i.e. me, mine, your, their. It is not an abbreviation for you are. If you are trying to abbreviate you are, it is written you’re. Likewise, “there” is used to refer to a place, and their is the pronoun – so when you write “trying to appease there actions” I assume you mean “trying to appease their actions.” Now to the substance of your comment, after you learn some grammar maybe you should go and learn some factual history and not the propaganda b.s. from the Israeli ministry of nonsense. These are not occupied Jewish lands. The Palestinians (and many indigenous peoples have no need to self-identify – this is very common in many areas of the world which you would learn if you tried to educate yourself outside of typical western colonial thought) have lived and occupied these lands for thousands of years. A very tiny number of Jews lived in Palestine before the British Mandate, and the overwhelming majority of occupants were indigenous Palestinians. Furthermore, the fact that the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire is a red herring to the argument, and is nothing more than a reflection of colonial times.

    Finally, yes Israel was recognized after its creation in 1948, and the creation of Israel was also premised upon the creation of a separate nation – Palestine. It was never the intention of the Balfour Declaration and the United Nations to create a singular Jewish state where the Arabs would be second class citizens. It was never the intention of the U.N. and the Balfour Declaration that the Palestinians would be relegated to refugee camps and centers but since 1948 many thousands of displaced Palestinian children have grown up in U.N. refugee camps – refugees from their homes in what you now call Israel.

    You, Kit, know neither your history nor your current facts.

  13. Lisa

    Kit – just read your comments from above where you said:

    Maybe it’s fitting when Europe allowed 6 million Jews to be killed by the Germans, and a lost of these PRODUCTIVE & talented people, and replaced with 20 million welfare seeking WORTHLESS MUSLIMS the last 30 years!

    I see you are not only ignorant, you are a worthless bigot and the worst kind of American there is: one with a big mouth and no brain filled with hate. Your comments are despicable. You are nothing.

  14. Lisa

    I “loose” the discussion? Kit, you are the person who is so totally ignorant as to facts that I would not know where or how to begin to enlighten you. Begin with the concept of zero – it did not exist in Greek and Roman culture, numbers – indeed those numbers you use daily to dial your cell phone are Arabic numbers, the decimal system, not to mention the enormous contributions to Algebra, manipulation of Algebraic expressions, geometry and trigonometry, and this is nothing but the tip of the iceberg. In the area of science and medicine it was Muslim scientist Avicinna who first recognized the contagious nature of disease, spread of disease through water and soil and the interaction between psychology and health.

    I have neither the time nor inclination to go on and on. You can choose your beliefs but as to the facts, you are wrong and you have “loosed” this argument.

    Go get an education for yourself: go visit Palestineremembered.com for a start. I

  15. I just spent some time looking over the activity on this thread, as of late and I see a lot of interesting ideas. I could not resist to add to them.

    History is a place unlikely to convince anyone of anything, as so much of it will always be open to interpretation and in fact written history is a form of human fiction in the end. Truth, most especially in the historical perspective, despite what each of us feels in our hearts about that which we care, is often relative to the individual, sides are thus question and morality measured. Moral arguments, often enough, cannot be won.

    From the earliest ages, populations across the globe are conditioned into believing the history we learn and the news coverage we watch is both objective and factual; that television and film are agents of truth. The reality is our hard drives are bombarded with massive uploads of over-simplified, dogmatic, prejudiced information on a near daily basis. We are systematically programmed to believe what we believe and all too often, leave the act of discovery for others.

    Labeling and thus compartmentalizing an entire nationality, Americans let’s say, or a Religiosity, like Islam or Judaism, is also dangerous. It diminishes and marginalizes both those who use the argument and those to which the argument is applied.

    I think humanity’s greatest strength is in our multiplicity, our biggest weakness, however, is our tragic failure to embrace it. In a time when the world is smaller than ever before, it is the our responsibility to become global citizens, promoting
    both respect and awareness of alternative perspectives of life – engaging and embracing the world around us, whenever we can.

    All I know, all I see within the realm of my perspective in terms of what is happening in Palestine, today, right now, is that it’s wrong.

    Today, right now, not 100 years ago, not even yesterday, an entire group of people is being marginalized, manipulated and humiliated. Today in Palestine, and not in Europe, now, or 50 years ago, people are being evicted from the homes, their houses torn down before their eyes.

    At this very moment a group of people is slowly but surely, being eradicated within the overpowering walls an apartheid system, all in hopes of cleansing them from the ground beneath their feet. And it is wrong.

    This is what I believe. This is my perspective. I cannot change yours.

    With all the comments on this post, the only individual who is spindling hatred into their argument is an individual named Kit. I would be amiss if I did not say as much. I feel he is very clearly a prejudiced bigot and defeats his own often well thought out argumentation with hatred.

    There is no arguing with someone like that and simply allow him to give his opinions. Response is futile.

    Oh yah… Take it easy on me if I used any bad grammar or left in some typos.

    • Kit

      David, thank you for your kind words….they encourage me & point out I’m on the right track.

      The effort of Islamization is fiendishly obscene. It is to classify as “bigotry” the resistance to an ideology that would extinguish the freedom of speech and the freedom of conscience, as well as equality of rights before the law for women and non-Muslims. It is like calling Winston Churchill a bigot for resisting Nazism.

      Sir Winston Churchill

      “Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

      No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step…”

      Without criticism, Islam will remain unassailed in it’s dogmatic, fanatical medieval fortress, ossified in it’s totalitarian, intolerant, paranoid past. It will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality and truth.

      “Because Muslims hate their women, and any group who hates their women can’t love anyone else.” People then ask, but why do Muslims hate their women?” And I reply, “Because their god does.” Abdullah al-Qasimi (Arabia)

      Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense.

      “He who exploits faith for personal and political gain is contemptible….Islam is an absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, a rotting corpse which poisons our lives.” – Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Turkey secular leader 1920′s)

      Truth be told: Violence is the animating force of Islam. Islam is, a totalitarian authoritative political ideology hiding behind a thin veil of religious protection, born through violence, raised by violence, thrives on violence and dies without violence.

      • Michael

        Kit

        Your ideas about islam are blown out of proportion. There in a peaceful base in every religion, including Islam. Islam says nothing about forcing women to cover up. I believe it started out as a custom based in the tribal traditions of the Semites. All it says in the Koran is that women should be modest, the same thing is written in the Torah (also a religion based in tribal practices). Islamophobia is anti-semitism’s evil twin… and the same excuces were used by Europeans back in the Dark Ages when they were too buisy burning non-Christians at the stake to advance culturally.
        Some of the violent passages in the Koran, like the Old Testament can be attributed to the warlike times in which they were written. If I wanted to make a case that Christians are inherently violent all I would have to do is site the Old Testament, point out the Crusades, Inquisition and Holocaust and I would have proved my point.

      • Michael

        That being said, some people take islam to an extreem and missinterpret it, take it out of context and refuse to adapt to a modern and inclusive way of life. Herein lies the problem…

  16. Lisap

    Michael, you claim you are not suggesting that the Palestinians ought to pack up and leave but that is in fact what you are doing when you deny them the right to self-determination and self governance when you suggest that they have been denied “passports” and “refuge” in countries which support them. Perhaps you meant to say that they have been denied Visa’s because if you recognized that they are an autonomous people then you would agree that they ought to be entitled to travel on passports of their own country.

    As to your argument regarding Jordan, those quotes need to be understood in the historical context of the period of Transjordan under the League of Nations mandate, and when they are placed in a historical context it is perfectly obvious that they are referring to the entire area of Palestine and Transjordan as belonging to Palestinians a/k/a the indigenous people of Palestine.

    It’s so interesting that people who wish to deny Palestinians autonomy dredge out the quote that “Palestinian peoples does not exist” as if that quote ought to be sufficient to deny their existence, and argue that they ought to be taken in by their Arab brothers and sisters. Presumably, those who foster this misguided view know nothing of the DNA studies conducted on Palestinians and Israeli’s by a well respected Israeli Geneticist, Dr. Ariella Oppenheim whose DNA research into the past populations of Israel has shown Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians share common ancestors, which ancestors are not shared with other Arab populations. This is one of many articles but probably amount the most accessible. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/?tool=pubmed

    To suggest, as you do, that the concept of the Palestinian people is a by-product of the British mandate not only defies science, sociology and linguistics, but reflects a throw back to colonialism. Whether Palestinians self-defined as such or not is moot: there is clear and convincing scientific proof that the indigenous population of occupied Israel represent the historical descendants of ancient people who occupied that land.

    Your assumption that I have no empathy for the Israeli’s is misplaced and naive, and I clearly stated that it is far too late to undo the recent past. However, I have far more compassion and respect for the Palestinian people who have lived and protected and fought for their land for century upon century.

    • Michael

      Lisap

      Like your other avatar without a p on the end you are putting words in my mouth and trying to twist what I have said.

      If you fail to recognize the complicity of other Arab nations in this conflict you are part of the problem. Not the solution.

      Your racial comments in regards to indigenous rights and references to genetic tests is fine but you seem to forget that genetically we all come from the same woman in Africa.

      Who has original right to the land is obvious but that will not change anything. Throughout history groups have moved, migrated and fought wars over territory.

      The Palestinians were farmers whose land was owned by absentee landlords. The Israelis bought the deeds from these landlords and evicted them. It is not fair, I agree and it should have been done in a more humane way.

      Bulldozing houses and evicting Palestinians en mass only really started however, during and after the Arab Israeli war.

      And yes it is a fact that the PLO wanted all of geographical Palestine, not just what is now Jordan or what is now Israel. They wanted both Jordan and Israel (including the west bank and Gaza strip) and both Jordan and Israel responded in kind with repression!

      The point I am making here is that both the Jordanian royal family and Israel are responsible for the repression of Palestinians. Jordan in fact refused to give the Palestinians a state in the West Bank when it was under their control and signed an agreement not to give them any land.

      All the quotes I gave you were taken in context as Jordan saw the Arab Israel war as a potential land grab and tried to take over the West Bank on the grounds that Jordan and Palestine were one and the same.

      They regretted this afterward as the PLO fought Jordan for a state up until the Black September massacres were ordered by the “King” (who was backed by the British). After this Jordan handed the West Bank to Israel (washing their hands of responsibility and accountability).

      Equally responsible are the Egyptians (who support the blockade on Gaza) the Lebanese (who refuse civil rights to Palestinian refugees on the grounds that it would unbalance their country) as well as Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran among others who funnel money to Hamas and Hezbollah not out of a sense of charity towards suffering Palestinians but out of national interest.

      If they truly cared about Palestinians they would buy food for them, not ammunition. They would grant them asylum in their countries until Israel allowed them to return and they would at the very least acknowledge their own accountability.

      The Arab Israeli war was not declared by Israel, it was declared by the Arab nations surrounding it.
      These nations are using Palestinian suffering to meet their own ends. The Palestinians are their weapon against Israel.

      Hamas does not want peace with Israel and it does not want a nation respecting the U.N mandate, it wants the entire piece of land. Including all of what is Israel proper.

      They speak of pushing the Jews into the sea and a second holocaust. Funding them is funding hate and terror. Not peace and reconciliation.

      To use one of your analogies I would say that if Canada’s ruling party announced that it wanted to destroy the U.S and drive all Americans into he sea we would face similar repercussions as Gaza has from Israel.

      It is Hippocratic for you to advocate a Palestinian state in Israel without advocating the same thing in Jordan. This double standard is what I don’t like about your arguments.

      You are very comfortable criticizing Israel but every time I bring up Pan-Arab complicity in Palestinian suffering and the question of Jordan you get all defensive and start calling me a colonialist

      Many governments are responsible for the situation, including but not exclusively the Israeli one.

      Israel has been turned into the common enemy by a group pf pan-Arab nationalists who find it easier to blame Israel for everything because they are not Arab.

      If you choose to pin sole blame on Israel without acknowledging Arab accountability it proves that you are stuck in a polarized mode of thinking. This way of thinking is wrong, highly dangerous, counterproductive and dogmatic.

      • Lisa

        Michael, first let me note that I’m not intentionally using two avatars here. And no, I have not forgotten that we all originate from Africa, or at least those of us who accept science believe that we do. However, insofar as much of the justification for the creation of the state of Israel lies in arguments that the land was (a) historically occupied by Jews (b) given to the Jews by “God”, and (c) but for the diaspora would have been continuously occupied by a majority of Jews, and as others post here with the delusion that the Palestinian presence in Israel was but a brief migratory visit, I think it critical to an understanding of the conflict to acknowledge who are the historical occupants of the land.

        Second, one cannot honestly address the issues in Palestine without acknowledging that Israel came into existence as one of the last acts of colonialism. As you have recognized, the land purchases you mention were committed without consideration of the rights or interests of the indigenous population. Moreover, you seem to accept without question the legitimacy of these land transfers whereas I do not assume, as you do, that the purported landholders in fact had a right to sell the land out from under the occupants. I will agree with you that the Palestinians, the indigenous population have been oppressed for hundreds of years, and not simply by the hand of Israel.

        As to your vapid suggestion that Arab states ought to be giving asylum to Palestinians, surely you know that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who sought asylum during the first Arab-Israel war expecting, as you suggested, to be able to return were stripped of their property rights by Israeli legislative fiat, and they and their issue languish in refugee camps. Furthermore, you seem to ignore the fact that the great majority of the refugees were driven out of Israel by military action in 1948, which military action received outside assistance.

        Whereas you view my position as part of the problem, I view yours as racist and ethnocentric. You view Arabs as nothing more than an interchangeable conglomerate without separate identity, history or existence. Therefore given your simplistic cultural view, you equate the lack of assimilation by Palestinians throughout the Arab world as Arab on Arab oppression. You may not articulate this as your position in so many words, but between the lines of your argument it is plain as day.

        Finally, as to your hypothetical about Canada invading the U.S. I answer you thus: if my homeland were invaded by an occupying force I would take up arms and kill. I would never stop defending my homeland until the last of you had been driven out. I would not accept your presence nor would I acquiesce to your laws. I would kill you in your bed and wherever I met you. I would destroy you and if I died doing so, I would expect that my children would take up arms after me. I would take death before I would give you my liberty.

  17. Lisa

    @Kit – thank you for showing your character in the first paragraph of your delusional reply to me, and proving me correct: you are an indeed nothing more than a despicable hate filled person. There is nothing you can write that is worthy of reading and you are unworthy of any reply other than this. I’m sure whatever cave you crawled out of is cozy and warm and that your cave dwelling family awaits your return. Run along now as you’ve grown far too tedious and I’ve no interest in toying with you.

  18. Lisa

    @David Anthony H. – I wholeheartedly agree with you and think your post was outstanding. As to your observations on history, I believe it was Churchill who said that history is written by the victor and it is indeed somewhere between truth and fiction. I find that there are often 3 sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between. I agree with you that we need concern ourselves with the present and with finding a peaceful and permanent solution to the current situation of the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank, as well as the refugees and their descendants.

    It seems to me that the only hope is in a 2 state solution: Israel demands the right to control the ethnicity of its population to maintain a Jewish majority and, therefore, a primarily Jewish state. Thus, arguments in favor of a one state solution are construed as calling for the destruction of the State of Israel and that is no solution. Furthermore, I believe that Israel must cease demanding that Palestinians recognize Israel’s “right to exist” and instead accept what was offered by Arafat – a acknowledgment of Israel’s right to exist in peace and security. To demand the Palestinians acknowledge that Israel had a right to come into existence does nothing to further Israel’s interests, but forces Palestinians to agree that the suffering they have experienced was morally justified. There is no benefit to demanding that these people prostrate themselves to the creation of the state when the objective should be a present acceptance of Israel’s right to security and peace.

    It’s nice to have another rational thinker join the discussion.

    Lisa

    • Michael

      Davids comments were well thought out and his points well made.

      You on the other hand are not as much of a “rational a thinker” as you claim. You have accused me of all sorts of things I did not say and have twisted my words in the manner of the most unscrupulous politicians.

      I put you in the same category as Kit. You are hateful and one sided! (although you hold opposing views you are two sides of the same coin as it were). You feed off each others hatred and are the reason the world is such a violent place!

      In fact this post is the first rational and intelligent thing I have seen you write!

      Funny that you mention Churchill though. I love that you call me a colonialist and then quote Churchill. Oh the Irony! Here are some more telling Churchill quotes for you to chew on:

      I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.
      Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937

      I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.
      Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

      It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.
      Commenting on Gandhi’s meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

      (India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.
      In a letter to his mother, 1896

      I do not admit… that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia… by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race… has come in and taken its place.
      Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

      (We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.
      Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

      “The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre – horrid and inexorcisable.
      Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31

      The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate… I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.
      Churchill to Asquith, 1910

      One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations.”
      From his Great Contemporaries, 1937

      You are callous people who want to wreck Europe – you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.
      Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944

      So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?
      Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944

      This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)… this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.”
      Writing on ‘Zionism versus Bolshevism’ in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920
      see The Churchill you didn’t know

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2002/nov/28/features11.g21

      How do you like Churchill now you hypocrite?

  19. Lisa

    Thank you Michael, but you have offered me nothing new about Mr. Churchill, and that you find it ironic that I would quote him reflects both the narrowness of your perspective and your ability to quickly cruise the internet. That’s quite good for you though as I’m sure this was your first time reading Mr. Churchill; I’m happy I was able to broaden your horizons. Why don’t you chew on this for a bit – another quote from my favorite colonist:

    Never give in–never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

    • Michael

      Lisa, you have proven you are full of misplaced hate and that you seek only vengeance and further bloodshed in Palestine. Anyone who reads what I wrote will see that you are putting words in my mouth and twisting their meaning. Accusing me of beliefs I do not profess to and trying to demonize me and turn me into “the enemy” Good job… you and Kit have a lot in common!

  20. Lisa

    And, Michael, anyone reading your comments would quickly conclude that you are incapable of defending your positions once they are challenged, and quickly resort to childish name calling. You cannot distinguish between a comment which criticizes your opinion and a comment which criticizes YOU, and since you lack the ability to discern one from the other, you run completely off the tracks with shrill and hysterical claims. But I’ll try to give you a little more credit and assume that you’re emotional reaction is to my other post where I answered how I would respond if my country were attacked. I answered honestly, and I answered as I expect nearly all of my countrymen would answer, and as I expect you would too. Would you sit idly by and watch your family, your country, your way of life and liberty attacked? Or is Canada such a pacifist nation that you would have looked away if Pearl Harbor had been in your country?

    And for the record, no, I do not support further bloodshed in Palestine. And while I do not believe as an INTELLECTUAL exercise that Israel’s creation was lawful, nor do I believe that the country should be dismantled and forced into the sea. One must be able to put aside the intellectual exercise in favor of the reality on the ground, and that reality is that Israel is a sovereign state and will continue to be, as a sovereign state it deserves to live in peace and security, and the Palestinian people, including the refugees and their descendants must have an autonomous sovereign state. Furthermore, as Israel was created under the auspices of the United Nations, which is the only basis for any claimed legitimacy in my opinion, it is incumbent upon the nations which were a party to the creation of Israel to ensure that the Palestinian state is in fact created. That, Michael, has never happened and until it does I do not believe there will be peace in the area.

    And I might also mention that as a citizen of the United States, I am keenly aware of and concerned about this country’s position in the Middle East and how it is viewed by all of those nations, especially in light of what happened here on 9/11 when thousands of my countrymen, including one of my relatives, were murdered. I am also aware that too many times in my country’s history, we have supported puppet regimes and been on the wrong side of liberty and emerging self-determination when it was not viewed as consistent with this country’s “national interests”.

    So carry on, Michael, I’m sure you have plenty nasty names at the ready that you want to call me. Have at it. But know that’s a very poor excuse for your inability to articulate your positions, or persuade others you are right.

    • Michael

      Lisa,

      As you have justified violence against Israel without acknowledging the complicity of its neighbors or even mentioning the role of foreign governments. I have concluded that you are not worth arguing with.

      You seem to have no real desire for peace or any real sympathy for Palestinians on a human level and desire to use them as a human weapon against the Jewish state.

      You are a tool of nationalist, fundamentalist, violent, Anti -Semitic and oppressive pseudo- governments such as the Iranian regime and Hamas.

      I agree with some of your proposed solutions to the problem but I also see your politics as naif and lacking in clarity, proper historical context and fairness.

      I will from now on treat your comments with the same lack of regard as I treat kit’s (by not replying to them).

  21. Lisa

    Well thank you Michael, for being a gentleman and allowing me the last word. Your comment is so consistent with my summation of your inability to defend your views that I thank you for proving me right. Of course, I’m sure with time and maturity you’ll learn better to defend your views, but you must know that you write like the college student I strongly suspect you are. Indeed, if I had to guess I’d suppose that your entire knowledge of the Middle East came from nothing more than one class because your naivete is only surpassed by your immaturity. And as I believe you were previously uninvited from this place by the Hostess herself, I will happily accord you the status of infinite nihil.

  22. Lisa

    My last 2 posts are in response to “Kit’s” most recent 2 posts addressed to me.

  23. Michael

    If peace comes before justice” I will not complain, as long as justice for one does not come at the expense of another.

  24. Michael

    A CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.

    So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site.

    She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.

    “Pardon me, sir, I’m Rebecca Smith from CNN. What’s your name?

    “Morris Feinberg,” he replied.

    “Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?”

    “For about 60 years.”

    “60 years! That’s amazing! What do you pray for?” “I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims.”

    “I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop.”

    “I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults, and to love their fellow man.”

    “How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?”

    “Like I’m talking to a wall.”

    Lisa,

    You are the wall and all I can do now is pray for peace

    Shalom

  25. Eman–Well articulated above, with an excellent graphic.

    • Michael

      I hope you aren’t talking about that fake map and calling it an “excellent graphic” It is baseless propaganda. I’m surprised that you would spread such nonsense in an otherwise o.k blog. The “well articulated” comment only shows one sidedness. With attitudes like this your blog will become nothing more than another anti-Israel hate site where rational people are censored. You will end up preaching to the converted because everyone else will realize what you are doing is propaganda because you refuse to allow any an intelligent debate or give voice to the other side. You are operating in the same manner as you accuse the American media of acting.

      • It’s not a fake map and you know it. And if you haven’t seen it before, I bet it shook you.
        I’m not a lier and I’m all for civil debate.

      • Michael

        The map did not shake me in the slightest. It has not become a reality. The reality is that Israel is about the same size as Vancouver island…

      • yes that small and yet has nuclear weapons, a state-of-the art army, and the unwavering support of the world’s superpower, USA. It might as well be as big as Russia. If the Arabs did not stand up to it, it would have taken everything.

      • Michael–yes I was referring to that map, which I have seen before as it is the map of “Eretz Israel” corresponding to the Herzl claim, and one that is still current among a certain group of Israelis who help drive the government agenda.
        The well-articulated stands. It is a necessary corrective to the opposite side of the discussion and includes more than one perspective.
        The only thing disappointing in this blog has been the tone of the debate among those, including yourself, “discussing” this topic here recently.

      • Michael

        If it didn’t have nuclear weapons and the state of the art military that it does you would have gladly seen it destroyed. the Arabs did not stand up to it, they picked a fight with it (and lost might I add). Since then you have been whining to the U.N (even after Israel returned most of what it conquered in the war, including Sinai as a goodwill gesture). You should be thanking Israel for the continued existence of Saudi Arabia and for all the money it brought your way. Not cursing it and spreading lies about it’s founders! Some very powerful people in your country have very strong connections with Israel and it would be nice if you stopped attacking it and accepted it as a neighbour. maybe then Israelis would feel secure enough to take down the walls they have erected to protect themselves. Maybe then they could allow Palestinians free passage through their territory without fear of suicide attacks and maybe then they could allow cargo to land in Gaza unchecked because they would not have to fear that you and yours are sending them weapons disguised as aid to kill Israelis!
        If you want security for Palestinians stop trying to attack Israel. It is very simple. The Palestinian territories would be thriving right now were it not for attacks fueled by this dogma and hate you are spreading. You cannot expect Israel to make concessions until the Arab world recognizes its right to exist in security and peace.

      • Michael

        The following disproves your little map: see http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

        Theodore Herzl and the Foundation of the Zionist Movement

        The Dreyfus Affair, in which a Jewish officer of the French army was falsely convicted of treason in 1894, initiated waves of anti-Semitism in the French press and in the street. It cast doubt on the notion that Jews could achieve acceptance in modern liberal democracies, and made Western European Jews conscious of their national identity. In particular, it affected a young Vienna journalist, Theodor Herzl . His pamphlet Der Judenstaat, The Jewish State, was published in 1896. Herzl’s plan for creating a Jewish State, arrived at after contemplating other solutions as well, provided the practical program of Zionism, and led to the first Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland, in August, 1897.

        After the first Basle Congress, Herzl wrote in his diary, “Were I to sum up the Basle Congress in a word- which I shall guard against pronouncing publicly- it would be this: ‘At Basle, I founded the Jewish State. If I said this out loud today, I would be answered by universal laughter. If not in 5 years, certainly in 50, everyone will know it.’”
        Zionism: Theodor Herzl
        Theodor Herzl

        There had been lesser Zionist political gatherings with the same aims in the years just prior to the Zionist Congress, but they did not attract the attention that Herzl’s congress did, and were largely forgotten. The Basle congress marked the foundation of Zionism as a world political movement.

        In 1902, Herzl published a utopian novel to popularize the Jewish state, Altneuland, (old-new land) a vision complete with monorails and modern industry. The novel concludes, “If you will, it is no legend.”

        Herzl thought that diplomatic activity would be the main method for getting the Jewish homeland. He called for the organized transfer of Jewish communities to the new state. Of the location of the state, Herzl said, “We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by public opinion.”

        Herzl attempted to gain a charter from the Sultan of Turkey for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, then ruled by the Ottoman Empire. To this end he met in 1898 with the German Kaiser, Wilhelm II, in Istanbul and Palestine, as well as the Sultan, but these meetings did not bear fruit.

        Herzl negotiated with the British regarding the possibility of settling the Jews on the island of Cyprus, the Sinai Peninsula, the El Arish region and Uganda. After the Kishinev pogroms, Herzl visited Russia in July 1903. He tried to persuade the Russian government to help the Zionists transfer Jews from Russia to Palestine. At the Sixth Zionist Congress Herzl proposed settlement in Uganda, on offer from the British, as a temporary “night refuge.” The idea met with sharp opposition, especially from the same Russian Jews that Herzl had thought to help. Though the congress passed the plan as a gesture of esteem for Herzl, it was not pursued seriously, and the initiative died after the plan was withdrawn. In his quest for a political solution, Herzl met with the king of Italy, who was encouraging, and with the Pope, who expressed opposition. A small group, the Jewish Territorial Organization (“Territorial Zionists”) led by Israel Zangwill, split with the Zionist movement in 1905, and attempted to establish a Jewish homeland wherever possible. The organization was dissolved in 1925.

        The insistence of Eastern European Jews on Palestine as the Jewish homeland, coupled with the failure of alternatives, maintained the focus of the Zionist movement on Palestine.

  26. Michael–I fail to see what on the whole site that you linked contradicts the map which is a rather standard one of “Eretz Israel” and based on an interpretation of the relevant Biblical passage that allows one to postulate the River Nile as the western boundary, and the Tigris-Euphrates as the eastern one.

    Perhaps you should be reading the younger generation of Israeli historians who have written so well on the founding of Israel, and have had access to newly released documents from the period of the founding.

    Haaretz reports their findings if you prefer not to read academic journals.

    • Michael

      The Bible has nothing to do with Zionism. It was a political movement.

      I have read the complete diaries of Ben Gurion and Theodore Herzl. This is how I came to the conclusion that your map is fake – you got it from “Palestinian think tank . org” or some other website and please stop pretending to be an academic and trying to belittle me.

      “Eretz Israel” includes all that is between the Jordan river and Mediterranean sea. Those borders minus Judea, Sumaria, the Gaza strip and East Jerusalem define the generally accepted boundary agreed on by most people in Israel and abroad. “Eretz Israel” in my understanding considers East Jerusalem and the West Bank as part of the country. That’s about as far as it goes…

      Any attempt to expand on that is either the rantings of a right wing nut job or a pathetic attempt on the part of anti-Zionists on both sides of the political spectrum to portray Israel in a negative light.

      Stop trying to twist history and learn to live with your neighbours. Else there is no hope for anybody, be they Israeli, Palestinian or spoiled, oil rich Saudi’s with a lot of time spare to spend on the internet…

      I actually need to get to work so go ahead and preach lies to the converted. Its what you are good at!

      • The Bible has nothing to do with Zionism. It was a political movement.
        It “The Bible” or “Zionism”. Many would argue that both were and are political. Zionists do see a direct connection as was made clear in the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel.

        that your map is fake – you got it from “Palestinian think tank . org” or some other website
        No on both accounts. Real, and read in an academic journal article, first, and numerous times since.

        please stop pretending to be an academic and trying to belittle me.
        Not pretending, not trying.

        “Eretz Israel” includes all that is between the Jordan river and Mediterranean sea.

        That is one interpretation and the currently most politically correct one, but not the only one. There is also the possibility that it is accepted “for the time being” as other borders have been accepted then transgressed.

        Wikipedia has a good overview of Eretz Israel with maps, and also another interpretation that includes the Arabian peninsula in Eretz Israel. Makes the map above look paltry.

        Stop trying to twist history and learn to live with your neighbours. Else there is no hope for anybody, be they Israeli, Palestinian or spoiled, oil rich Saudi’s with a lot of time spare to spend on the internet…

        I am not Saudi, and my neighbours are the USA on one side, and on parts of 2 others. They want our Arctic territory because of global warming and the opening of a lucrative sea passage. We are threatening to withhold the comedy of Martin Short and the singing of Sara McLaughlin unless they back off. So far they seem appropriately intimidated. If they act up, we will withdraw Celine Dion back into the Beauce region of Quebec. That should do it.

  27. Lisa

    Lets all hold hands and sing Kumbaya because Michael, the great strategist has figured out a plan for peace in the Middle East and its so simple: if only the Palestinians would give up their desire for self-governance, would stop seeking the return for those refugees and their children who were displaced beginning in the late 1940′s and accept life in the Gaza and West Bank ghetto’s and all would be well and good and the status quo can continue. There is of course that sticky little issue of the armed Israeli settlers who have moved into land set aside for the creation of a Palestinian homeland, and who routinely engage in terrorism to violently driven Palestinians off land under the watchful eye of the IDF, but I’m sure Michael has that all figured out too. Lets not forget has in effect advocated for undoing parts of the U.N. partition plan so as to give a portion of present day Jordan to the Palestinians for their homeland. (Presumably, this plan must come with the blessings of the Jordanians because no intelligent adult would argue that this be accomplished by force.) Then everyone can live happily ever after, as long as Israel continues to control all of the natural resources in Palestinian land. Or, maybe he is willing to accept a one state solution where all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would be granted second class citizenship in Israel, except that he doesn’t understand that would never be acceptable to Israel because that would threaten the Jewish character of the country, and ultimately lead to its destruction. Perhaps Israel could simply deport the issue of Palestinian citizens so as to maintain the Jewish majority status quo.

    Unfortunately, Michael’s understanding of history begins only after Israel was established. Were he to consider and reflect upon the fact that Britain’s control of the area was an act of colonialism which promoted mass immigration of Jews, against the wishes of and without consideration of the lawful citizens of Palestine, he would have to acknowledge that Israel’s creation was an artificial construct to relocate Jews and not the result of any democratic process. He would also have to acknowledge that the greatest threat to Israel, at least as articulated by many U.S. zionists, comes from within – as a result of natural population growth of Palestinians, and the threat that assimilation of Palestinians through return and absorption of the occupied territories will ultimately result, once again, in a Jewish minority. And that, according to Israel, would result in the destruction of Israel.

    Israel cannot be both a democratic state with full equality for all citizens and one which controls the ethnicity of its citizenry. It is either democratic or apartheid.

  28. Lisa

    @Chiara – I’d pass on Martin Short, please don’t recall Celine Dion or David Foster! If you leave us with nothing better to hope for than Lady Gaga I may as well give up on music.

    I think you’ve experienced what I have in trying to have a discussion with Michael: if you don’t immediately concede to his viewpoints he quickly resorts to immature name calling, ridiculous assumptions and lashing out because his opinions are based on only superficial knowledge of the history of the conflict. Thus he quickly becomes frustrated. He does remind me of some of my old college students who were 90 percent passion and idealism and 10 percent knowledge. I do believe his heart is in the right place and that he genuinely wishes for peace and stability in the Middle East. Perhaps when he grows up a bit and experiences life and the world he’ll learn to that to understand another’s views you need to try to see the world through their eyes, until you can do you cannot really understand both sides to any issue, and one cannot pick and choose from bits of history to have any real depth of knowledge and understanding. Perhaps he’ll also learn that if you throw out a challenge, i.e. asking me what I would do if my country were attacked, you had best be prepared to honestly answer your own question and not take off in a fit of hysteria.

    • Michael

      Dear Lisa,

      Speaking about someone else in the third person is really very rude. Even in an informal blog.

      I’m not going to bother addressing your assumptions about me because as we speak I am engaged wholeheartedly in the peace process.

      I apologize that my “superficial” understanding of the conflict has led to so much distress on your part and so many sarcastic and nasty comments.

      Chiara,

      I maintain that Zionism is in fact a political movement. I see it from a present day perspective. Not from the point of view of the many theorists who contributed to the creation of the state of Israel and Zionist thinking.

      The fact that religious Orthodox Jews are traditionally opposed to Zionism and that nearly all pertinent founders of the State of Israel were considered to be Secular Jews seems to have flown right over your head.

      I saw your website/blog and it is very Islam-centric, I’m assuming your heritage lies in the middle east. Something like Helan Thomas… I respect your perspective but I do not think demonizing Israel as the enemy will get you anywhere. I’m also Canadian and I grew up in the Beauce/eastern Townships region of Quebec. (My first Language is French which is why I make some errors in my English writing at times). Maybe we know some of the same people.

      These grandiose maps you present the world with are the workings of a theory in the process of evolution. Not a reflection of what Zionism is now or how it has evolved over time.

      Many young, Liberal minded Jews and non-Jews see Zionism today as the belief that Israel has a right to exist. Others see it as “Eretz Israel” and advocate the incorporation of at least parts of the West Bank and East Jerusalem into the State.

      Taking over the West Bank is not something very many people agree with but some see it as necessary if Israel is to be viable as a state. Most of its water supply is in Judea and Sumeria after all… (as was mentioned in the doc.)

      Israel needs to ease up on the Palestinians and give them equal rights. Whether in the context of a seperate state or within Israel I do not care. perhaps a federal solution akin to the “one country two systems” policy in China would work.

      Borders are not a very big deal to me. If I had my way borders would be erased from the world map and we would all be citizens of the world (my hippy side shining through)

      Either way my only goal here is to promote a balanced debate in the interest of resolving the conflict. What I see here is that you are playing a blame game.

      You are trying to paint a black and white picture of one side as the oppressor and one as the oppressed and you do so without acknowledging the many contributing factors including Arab responsibility for the plight of Palestinians and the mistakes made by Palestinians themselves.

      I have a much easier time sympathizing with peaceful liberation movements such as Mahatma Gandhi’s tactics in India and the Tibetan freedom movement. Because I know that true peace cannot be won by the sword.

      Israel and America are slowly learning this, and if peace is ever to be achieved the Arabs must learn as well. The only result of blame, hate and name calling is a WWIII. Not something any of us want, I hope. It would, after all, and as you have mentioned be a very unequal war as Israel is the only country in the region with Nukes (assuming Iran doesn’t have them yet). The destruction of many of the cities we all know and love in the Middle East would be a likely result of such a war.

      What your motivations are I can only guess but I will say from my perspective that hate will only breed more hate and blame will only bring out more actions which you do not like.

      Kit, who spoke earlier commes from the opposite side of the same coin as Laura. She sees Islam as a threat and she sees the Muslims as a group of violent religious nuts. I do not share her view because I do not like polarized thinking.

      I do not like the idea that Israel and America are responsible for all the evils of the world (though I disagree with many actions on their part).

      And I do not subscribe to the idea that Islam is an evil religion that is fundamentally violent (although Islamic fundamentalism and terrorist outfits repulse me as does the repression of women often preached by radical-Muslim Imams).

      It is time for Islam and the west to come to terms with each other and recognize each others gifts. And it is a time for moderates on both sides to speak out and say VIOLENCE DOES NOT REPRESENT ME, and violence shall NOT be done in my name!

      • Michael

        Oh yah, Liza… I called you Laura in the fourth paragraph from the bottom of my latest post. Totally a mistake! Please forgive the error (though forgiveness does not seem to be one of your strong points)

  29. Lisa

    No problem about calling me Laura – but it’s Lisa with an “s” not Liza with a “z” cause Liza with a “z” goes “zzzzz” not “sssss”. Sorry – that cultural reference was probably before your time.

    Good luck with your peacemaking – would that be with children in a Montessori school by any chance?

    • Michael

      Wow, you really are horrible…
      I’m writing very quickly and don’t have the time to check these details. Anyway, you have lost my respect with your low blows and snobbery. If you fancy yourself a professor, I pity your students!

      • This is just an example of how ethnocentric and racist Zionists are. And you say “you are trying to paint a black and white picture of one side as the oppressor and one as the oppressed” which is actually the truth; Israel is an apartheid state that was invented based on a religious text and unnaturally maintained through forced expulsion of the natives and commercialized and subsidized naturalization of a certain religious group. Anyone who denies this is either blind or a lier.
        And then you post this video which is the epitome of painting a fake black and white picture. So without Israelis the world would come to an end?! Or is every Arab and Muslim covered in black and a terrorist. All I can say is practice what you preach.

      • Michael

        Saudiwoman,

        I’m not saying I agree with this video 100%
        I’m just trying to underline some of the positive achievements of Israel and the Jewish people so that you can all see that there are two sides to this nation and its people.

        There are many scientists, inventors, doctors and other civilians in Israel who are doing their best to make the world a better place.
        And who want peace. To boycott them and spread hate and lies against them is a mistake. (As even the Palestinian authority has acknowledged). I do not condone negative portrayal of all Muslims and I do not agree with the portrayal of all Arabs as terrorists (as I have already said).

        Don’t start putting words in my mouth. I did not make this vid. I am shared it in the hopes that you might learn something. But of course you only focused on the negative when it comes to Jews and Israel (for a change).

        Now that you have seen how some people portray your side of the debate maybe you can appreciate how I feel when you paint all Zionists with the same brush.

      • Are you seriously comparing the racist video you shared with the documentary I posted? If that’s the other side, you just made me even more convinced of my views and my opinion on the ethnocentrism and genocidal racism of Zionists. How different is this type of video from the propaganda that Hitler used?

      • Michael

        I don’t think anyone wants to destroy the Palestinians on this forum. Least of all myself. If you don’t like the post I’m sorry and I will stop posting on your blog since you have obviously made up your mind and are pre-disposed to sum me up as a racist because I am trying to promote a balanced resolution.
        Yes in fact I was comparing this film to your doc. because both films show a refusal to see the other side of the story. And a closed mindedness to open dialogue.

        here is my final post. And may Peace be with you.

        Whatever happened, it happened for good.
        Whatever is happening is happening for good.
        Whatever that will happen, it will be for good.
        What have you lost for which you cry?
        What did you bring with you, which you have lost?
        What did you produce, which has destroyed?
        You did not bring anything when you were born.
        Whatever you have, you have received from Him.
        Whatever you will give, you will give to Him.
        You came empty handed and
        You will go the same way.
        Whatever is yours today was somebody else’s yesterday and will be somebody else’s tomorrow.
        Change is the law of the universe.

        -From the Bhagavad Gita-

      • Michael

        P.S,

        Equating pride in Israel’s achievements with Nazism is like comparing your support of Palestinians with Terrorism. Just plane stupidity!

        This video does not call for war or the persecution of Palestinians it merely points out that without Israel the world would be far less developed

        It also demonizes Hamas ( just as you demonize Zionists in your propaganda piece).

        I think the intention behind this video was to educate people about Israels achievements and maybe convince people that Israel is not all evil while highlighting some of the good things it does.

        Yet positive depiction of Israel and negative depiction of Jihadis is racism to you?
        Then how is your negative depiction of Israel and sympathetic stance towards Hamas not racism?

        What a double standard coming from someone who calls all Zionists evil and equates Israel with Nazi Germany (in a blatant and cheap attempt to shame Jewish people who’s family may have died in the holocaust)

        I think your doc. is one sided propaganda with no sympathy for the Israelis or their need for security and peace.

        I believe that The Muslim world has contributed much to society and I have written extensively on the subject.

        I do not however support terrorism from the Hamas side

        As I have said before you are just the other side of the same coin. No better than the makers of this video which you equate to Nazism. You are a one sided war monger, fighting in the name of freedom.

        Like everybody else who promotes violence and sectarian hatred you justify war with the atrocities your enemy commits.

        This will not put an end to suffering, it will only make the situation worse.

        I have been forced to play devils advocate here but I hope you see my point.

      • stop saying that you’re leaving and then not leave. It’s silly and childish.
        I don’t say this video calls for war directly but in the same way that Nazism called for war in their propaganda videos and writings that depicted Aryans as superior. So basically what this video says is that if you are born Jew in Israel you are most likely to a genius that will advance Human-kind?! But if you are born Muslim then you are most likely to grow up to be a terrorist, so we might as well throw out all the Muslims or even kill them because their life is inferior. That’s the message that video sends and arrogantly and sarcastically too as though it was given.
        While the documentary that I posted is just that, based on facts and experts. How could you even think of comparing the two?
        And just so you stop throwing that “I’m hated because I’m a Jew” comment around, I have to tell you that my ancestors were Jew and the founder of my tribe was at the crucification. Basically you are talking to a fellow Semite, although I have issues with the term.

        You did not address my previous statement. Just ignored it and jumped to insults and attacks:
        Israel is an apartheid state that was invented based on a religious text and unnaturally maintained through forced expulsion of the natives and commercialized and subsidized naturalization of a certain religious group. Are you denying this?

      • Michael

        sorry if you are offended but I was getting used to arguing with Lisa. Not exactly the most respectful debater I have ever me.
        I am perfectly aware that there is a belief among some that prominent families in Saudi Arabia (and possibly yours though I have no idea who you are) are descended from Jewish origin. Not something widely mentioned and I believe it is quite taboo to say this in your country.
        Feel free to remove my former comment if you find it offensive. I was angry at having Israel compared to Nazi Germany and peeved that you managed to equate it as such. You are evidently stuck in the idea that Israel is evil. That everything it does is evil and that it was founded on evil. All I can say is that you have a one track mind. You fail to see any of the good in Israel because you are only capable of seeing it as the enemy. As the oppressor of Palestinians. You will never see that it was a refuge for Jews around the world running for their lives from places like Germany and Morocco. You do not see that many Jews are also Arab and you failed to include any of the background or explain any of the “why” in regards to Israel’s attitude these days. Israel’s actions today are based on a collective memory of Genocide and a fear that it will be repeated on them if they seem too weak. The current government plays on this fear and uses it as a tool to crush opposition within Israel. No one will go against the government and the IDF because their fear of annihilation at the hands of people who hate them is deep rooted. After all, it has happened time and time again throughout history and many (including Hamas) have talked of doing it again. I do not think Israel should have been created the way it was, but now that it is there the fact should be accepted and we should move on. Before you can get Israel to stop its segregation of Palestinians you need to allow them a measure of real security and proof that they will not be wiped from the map once they acquiesce. I have nothing against you personally but i do wish you could sympathize. Your mentality is far too black and white and this is reflected in your documentary, the footage you chose and the academics you chose to interview without giving voice to others.
        I have protested against the actions of the Israeli government myself but I do not put all Zionists or all Israelis in the same box and call them evil. If you insist on using the Nazi analogy (which is very over used). Hitler came to power in the wake of WWI, a war that crushed Germany and turned it’s people into beggars, so they created a common enemy (the Jews, gypsies etc… ) and rebuilt the nation based on that hate. This pattern was repeated within Israel (Jews, having been humiliated and killed around the world make Arabs their enemy) and and is now being repeated again by those people who call for the annihilation of Israel (Arabs, seeing the suffering of Palestinians make the Israelis their enemy and base a new kind of Pan-Arab nationalism on that hatred). This will see the cycle of hate continue. the only way to fix this is to nip it in the bud by calling for a peaceful solution to this conflict. I see the peace process as an opportunity to advance society and human values. As I said before, statehood and nationalism do not matter to me. But as it stands the polarized attitudes which you support in your documentary will only make things worse.

      • You do not dictate to me my family tree nor tell me the “beliefs” of my country. You are a foreigner and have no right to pretend to know better than me my family’s genealogy. Do you even speak Arabic?! And no it is not taboo, the Prophet Mohamed PBUH himself said that Bani Tameem has always been Abrahamic.
        If you had watched the documentary you would have seen that all Arabs are now on board with the two state solution. We are all tired of this conflict. It is a war my grandfather fought in and now my children are inheriting it. The documentary is even out-dated with regards to how badly that Arabs want a two-state solution. It is the Zionists who are against it even when they say they aren’t to ad lib to the rest of the world. They take over all natural resources in the West Bank and Gaza and they speckle the land with Jewish extremist settlements that drive Muslims to their own version of extremism. The Jews that are Arab were happy here and were not persecuted neither were the Christians. There might have been inequality but they are our people and nothing like the Nazi like ethnic-cleansing that is happening under Israel against Arabs even Jewish and Christian Arabs.
        You write:
        ” I do not think Israel should have been created the way it was, but now that it is there the fact should be accepted and we should move on. Before you can get Israel to stop its segregation of Palestinians you need to allow them a measure of real security and proof that they will not be wiped from the map once they acquiesce. I have nothing against you personally but i do wish you could sympathize. Your mentality is far too black and white”
        Easy for you to say. You want me to sympathize with an oppressor who commits ethnic-cleansing and land-stealing and says “its ok ignore the refugees and corpses and grieving families because it has happened before in history?!” What did the Palestinians do to have to pay for the Holocaust, they didn’t commit it nor condone it. If you sympathize with Israel against the defenseless Palestinian natives of the land, you are either heartless or a Zionists. They are one and the same. And if Israel has the right to defend itself than Palestinians have a much greater right to fight back.

      • Michael

        You call me a foreigner, and say that excludes me from talking about Saudi yet you are not a Palestinian or an Israeli and you have made an entire film on the subject. Interesting!

        Not that it matters but I can understand Arabic and I can read and write very basic phrases in Standard Arabic. That’s about it. I do not understand dialect. I don’t speak Hebrew very well either to be honest although some of my family do.

        I find it odd that you claim Jewish ancestry and then deny the fact that it is taboo in Saudi to allege Jewish origin to powerful people.

        Tell that to the boy who had his tong cut out for saying that the Saudi Royal family is of Jewish origin and posting it on youtube.
        Tell that to MOHAMMAD SAKHER who was killed by the Saudi regime for alleging as much.

        http://www.coffinman.co.uk/jewish_roots_of_the_saudi_royal_family.htm

        http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/bridge/632/history.html

        Now let me make clear that I do not condone this allegation. I am simply showing proof that some who allege the Saudi royal family to be Jewish have been killed. This makes clear that being Jewish and having power in Saudi is taboo.

        In regard to your final comment claiming that the Palestinians are acting in self defense. This is the same argument the IDF use to justify what they are doing in Gaza. as well as the Lebanon invasion and every other military action they make.

        Which came first I ask you, the chicken or the egg?

      • No I didn’t say that you have no right to talk about Saudi. I said you have no right to pretend to know better than me. On what basis?
        I don’t “claim” Jewish ancestry, it’s a fact. Tameem bin Mir, the founding father of Bani Tameem is a direct descendant of Ishmael bin Abraham. He is said to have seen and spoken with Jesus and was there at the crucification. He converted to Christianity and immigrated to Yemen.
        And those websites that you shared are just plain silly. Not a single reliable source in them. I’m not even going to dignify them by responding to their claims. I encourage everyone to open and see for themselves.
        Israel came first and is still going. Makeshift rockets and boys throwing rocks while living in extreme poverty, behind blockades and banned from freedom of movement is extremely different from an apartheid state and racist cities protected by a state-of-the-art army paid for by USA tax dollars. If the Israelis were forced to live under the same conditions that Palestinians are living under, the Israeli population would dwindle down to the most fundamentalist of Zionists. Only people whose land this is would stay under the conditions that Palestinians live under.

      • Alicia

        American’s invented the cell phone.

      • Michael

        MOST OF WHAT IS the modern day cell phone was developed in Israel (software, GPS, text, IM, etc However it was invented by Motorola USA, (with it’s largest R&D center being in Israel),Doctor Martin Cooper invented the modern cell phone. He invented the technology responsible for the cell phone when was the Director of Research and Development at Motorola. Cooper is also known as the first person to make a call on a cell phone. On April 3, 1973, Motorola employee Dr. Martin Cooper placed a call to Dr. Joel S. Engel, head of research at AT&T’s Bell Labs, while walking the streets of New York City talking on the first Motorola DynaTAC prototype in front of reporters.
        the actual cell phone components (what makes it tick) were developed in Israel because this is where Motorola’s research and development took place. Israel and the U.S are an inseparable pair I’m afraid…

  30. Lisa

    You consider someone’s name a detail and have the audacity to accuse me of snobbery? Surely you jest! And I pity your education for surely you have never encountered a professor who stretched your mind enough to think past your own beliefs. Stop reading into the posts of others what you wish to see and you may actually move from ignorance to enlightenment. It is time for me to return the literary gift to you — from Charles Dickens.

    “This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased.”

    Michael – you are the boy, but if you learn to listen you just might be able to erase the writing and learn to be a man.

    • Michael

      L,

      Why would your name make any difference to me?

      The one thing you and Dickens seem to have in common is your EGOMANIA.

      You think that I should care about your name when it is totally irrelevant to me, while Dickens often referred to himself as “the Sparkler of Albion,” favorably comparing himself to Shakespeare’s nickname, “the Bard of Avon.” (Albion is an archaic name for England).

      It would appear that both of you indulge in delusions of grandiosity ne c’est pas?

      Dickens on the other hand was far more articulate than you, as well as far more interesting!

      Sorry, but you do not impress upon me the trappings of the next great English language novelist or even tabloid writer.

      Maybe you should stop trying to prove your points with quotes from far superior intellects! (Especially ones who died before Israel and Palestine became an issue).

      Were Charles Dickens to resurrect himself from the dead and debate me on this forum, trust me, I would remember!

      ‘Come, come, Sikes,’ said the Jew appealing in a remonstratory tone… ‘we must have civil words; civil words.’ (Charles Dickens in his novel Oliver Twist).

      So Lisa, now you are Sikes,

      Lets see if you can manage a civil conversation.

      Yours truly,

      The Jew

      • Lisa

        And I thought you were finished conversing with me. Seems you can’t keep your word. As for trying to engage in a civil conversation with you, I find you bore me – as you reveal your true colors it’s become more and more clear that you are nothing more than another radical Zionist with one view, one perspective, and solution. You have nothing new, different or interesting to offer to again, instead of calling you the Jew, I’ll just again call you infinite nihil.

      • Michael

        I’ll let you go back to hating all Zionists then and I wish you well.

        I have until now tolerated debating the subject with you despite your level of hatred and bigotry.

        I have done and will continue to do more to help the Palestinians than you ever will by spewing hate on the internet!

        You have no idea of my true colors and I’m afraid you never will. As I have already forgotten your name…

      • Lisa

        Yes, infinite nihil, I do hate zionists, national socialists and ku klux klan – as they are all despicable racists whose ideology is premised upon superiority of a particular chosen group. My only regret is that I had not seen your true colors earlier and recognized you for the despicable racist you are.

      • Michael

        You hate Zionists because they remind you of yourself :)

        I am neither a Zionist nor a racist as you accuse me.

        Focus your hate where it belongs,

  31. Lisa

    @Eman,

    I came upon this article which appears to have first been posted at Uprootedpalestinian blogspot – it was reprinted in Arab news. http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article67337.ece

    I thought it might be timely in light of the propaganda piece posted by one of your other guests.

    Finally, I wanted to apologize to you if I have said anything here which offends you – as it is certainly not my intention to offend my hostess.

    Israel’s List of Broken World Records

    Israel, a country the size of New Jersey can only claim to the following achievements:

    • Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine

    • Israel hold the world record in the number of towns & villages it ethnically cleansed…500+

    • Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported…4 million +

    • Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished…60 thousand +

    • Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation…500+ times

    • Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes…100+ times

    • Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…50 thousand+

    • Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country…250 thousand+

    • Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country…50 thousand+

    • Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other country…200 thousand+

    • Israel has only two countries to defend its policies in the United Nations. These countries are America & Micronesia. The population for Micronesia as of June 2008 is only 108,000

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly, steals the water of its neighbors

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination

    • Israel stands unique in using human shields in military operations

    • Amongst all countries, Israel is the only one that has legalized torture

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial

    • According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints

    • According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel holds the world record in the number of curfew it has installed on the Palestinians

    • Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints deny women access to hospitals, they give birth alone and babies usually die

    • Israel is exceptional in being the only country on Earth whose checkpoints denies patients access to hospitals, and they end up dying

    • Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints are where wedding parades come to an end

    • Israel is the only country on Earth who check points schoolchildren, denies them access to school, and puts an end to their classes

    • Israel is one of two countries that, against International Law, use cluster bombs and depleted uranium bombs. America is the other…what a surprise huh?

    • Israel holds the world record in the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the army

    • Israel despite being a rich country, receives the highest financial aid, more than the sum aid to all sub-Saharan Africa!

    • Israel claims its enemies want to wipe it off the map, but it has indeed wiped a whole country called Palestine off the map!

    • Israel is the country that has introduced nuclear weapons into the Middle East. But the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

    • After East Germany, Israel is the only country that is building a segregation wall

    • Second to South Africa, Israel is the only country to establish an apartheid regime

    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first iron gates on roads

    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first cities turned into jails with gates and opening hours

    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first apartheid walls

    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first electrified segregation fences

    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first ‘eyes specific’ rubber bullets

    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first abortion efficient, infant killing tear gas

    • Israeli engineers developed the worlds’ first humiliation guaranteed human cages

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that has a political party that publicly advocates ethnic cleansing of native citizens (Palestinians)

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that still has racist laws that discriminate against native citizens (Palestinians)

    • Israel is the only country on Earth known to have a memorial dedicated to a terrorist where his followers gather and dance

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that imprisons kids for political reasons

    • Israel is the only country on Earth where you get a one month community service for intentionally, smashing the head of a child! How much more proof do people need to see that Israel is a terrorist nation?????!!!!!!!!!!

    • Israel is the only country on Earth that does not hold its soldiers accountable for shooting peace activists in cold blood

    • No other country on Earth has towns and cities allocated exclusively for one ethnic group

    • The only country on Earth, where people live in homes stolen from living refugees is, Israel

    • The only place on Earth where people cultivate fields stolen from living refugees is, Israel

    • Israel has the highest number of towns built upon ethnically cleansed villages, whose former residents are living refugees

    • Israel ranks amongst the top countries in lack of security

      • Michael

        There is this possibility that some day people will stop arguing over numbers statistics and alternative history and work towards something real from a space of love. only then will there be real peace. I have not found anyone here like that.

    • Michael

      it would seem, Lisa that you have never been to China, Darfur, Sri Lanka or the United States. Otherwise you would realize that Israel is far from the only country using these methods which we all deplore.

  32. Lisa

    I think you mean a Ph.D. If you had one, you would certainly know how to write the abbreviation for it.

  33. Lisa

    Surprise, surprise – Michael’s a fraud. As if that wasn’t obvious. You didn’t have to admit you don’t have a Ph.D. – it was quite obvious that you don’t, and I’m all the more confident that you are exactly as I characterized you: a 20 something who fancies himself/herself an intellectual when he hasn’t finished college and lives in his parents’ basement.

    What on earth gives you the impression that you have made me squirm? You haven’t said anything to me that has hurt my feelings or challenged my beliefs. Other than being an apologist for Israel, you haven’t proven anything in all your rantings and ravings.

    As for the name calling and mud slinging, you started pointing fingers with your very first post so you have no one to blame but yourself if you don’t like the way people reply to you. Plus, for every one perceived slight against you, your response contains at least 3 attacks against me and others – how very Israeli of you to respond with a disproportionate reaction. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen as the saying goes, instead of whining like a little cry baby.

    I was giving you credit when I suggested you were in your 20′s: I actually think you’re a teenager from your emotional outbursts, tantrums, irrational finger pointing and inability to express yourself in an adult manner, and the dead give away – your incessant need to have the last word.

    Now run along Mikey, you’re out of your league, but just try to remember that old Jewish philosophy of “an eye for an eye” leaves the whole world blind.

    • Michael

      Yes it does, and some of us can see the light while others have been blinded by thoughts of vengeance. Squirm on dear Lisa, squirm on!

  34. Lisa

    I’m beginning to suspect that “Kit” and “Michael” are one and the same person. It’s very clear that English is neither poster’s first language, and there is a similar writing style – both have the same manner of single sentence paragraphs. Looks like two zionist trolls in one.

  35. Lisa

    Hello Kit – how nice of you to try to make me feel welcome – but you see, I really don’t like to talk to trolls and since you’re pretty much persona non grata here with all your posts disappearing – responding to you makes it look like I’m talking to a wall. Anyway, I don’t want to keep you as it must be about time for your night shift at Taco Bell.
    Oh – one thing I think we can agree on – we both love our country the U.S.A. though I suspect you’re a recent arrival – good for you. And when you go to sleep tonight Kit, just remember how much the Jewish voters in the U.S.A. love and supported President Obama! And even better – they’ll do it all over again in 2012! Isn’t this a great country sweetie!

    • Michael

      They vote for Obama for a very good reason; the current white house Chief of Staff (whom he selected) is Rahm Emanuel, the first Jewish man to attain such a high office in American history. . . you should watch his AIPAC address on youtube.

  36. Michael
    It’s true when you said Zionism ( and I can say the existence of Israel here since it’s a Zionist state) has nothing to do with the bible.
    From what I’ve read about history of Jews in the west, Jews are functional groups ,as they have always been in the West, used by the ruling elite to serve certain purposes. They have been used by Western imperialists to extend western colonialism . Thus, Israel is nothing but a colonial and imperialist project .
    History of imperialism is a history filled with horrible, brutal, and cruel crimes committed against humanity. And Western imperialists are using Jews to continue committing crimes in PALESTINE . If Palestine is for Jews, then where were Jews before Arabs came to Palestine?
    Western imperialists created hate and conflicts between Jews and Arabs, between Arabs and Turks, and now they are creating conflicts between shia and sunni Muslims.
    Arab governments now are definitely pro-Zionism ,and they have no problem betraying their own peoples to the ones killing them . So I agree with you that they must be to blame too but this does not change the fact that Israel is a state of murderers. Perhaps when Israel stops its horrible crimes , we can speak of coexisting and living peacefully.
    I suggest you read articles by Noam Chomsky, Edward Said , and Elmessirir:)
    Finally how can there be peace and love when there is no justice? . You definitely don’t know what love and peace mean then

    • Michael

      Almaha, Justice is a result of peace and love, not the precursor to them. You seem smarter than the other people on this forum.

      But your duality lies in the idea that “Western Imperialists” are causing all the worlds problems. Islamist extremists are as much to blame for conflict in the Middle East and elsewhere.

      Israel is a tool of the western world to the extent that it has allied its self with the powers at be in order to ensure its survival. Its government is very brutal and people accept that because they live in a state of constant fear of attacks.

      The only way to bring down the Israeli governments policies that you do not agree with is to remove fear from the hearts of Israelis so that they will no longer blindly follow their government and elect right wing leaders.

      This is an age old conflict that cannot be solved through blaming one another. I do agree that it is the west that is historically anti-Semitic and Jews lived more easily in the Arab world than in Europe for centuries. They were treated better under Saladin in Jerusalem than by the crusaders. Better by the Moors in Spain than by the Christian leaders of the Spanish Inquisition later on and far better in Morocco than by the Nazis of Europe.

      The Jews and Arabs should be uniting as brothers. Not killing each other.

      The problem came with the idea of a “state” the idea that Jews needed a state in order to escape persecution by the Goyim (gentiles). But this is not the fault of the Jewish people who immigrated there. It is the fault of a select few in the Zionist movement (all of whom have died) with a road map to displace the Palestinians e.g Ben Gurion (whose diaries admit as much).

      Now that the founders of Israel are dead do you insist on hating the generation of Israelis who are born in Israel and know no other land as their home? In my mind they have as much right to the land as the Palestinians (whose right to the land I am not denying).

      Telling these second and third generation Israelis to leave – as was advocated by Lebanese American Journalist Helan Thomas (whom I otherwise respect) and many in the Arab media – would be like telling Americans of non-indigenous descent to move back to the many countries of their origin.

      The dispossession of the Palestinians was intentional on the part of some, *not all, Zionists. it was and continues to be truly tragic.

      Displacement of people is a part of human history and a pattern that repeats its self and will continue to repeat its self until we choose to live without hate.

      If you want to foil the divide and conquer tactics of “western imperialists” unite as brothers and they can do nothing to harm either Jews or Arabs. After all they are of the same bloodline according to historical records, DNA tests as well as the Koran, Bible and Torah.

      • Lisa

        And a simple first step in the right direction would be for the state of Israel to cease it’s current displacement of Palestinians, its demolition of Palestinian homes, and stop expanding settlements in the occupied territories and East Jerusalem. I agree with you Michael, as I said days ago, that it is too late to undo the past and demand that Israeli born Jews leave as Helen Thomas suggested. However, Israeli expansionism is just an enormous roadblock for achieving peace and a two state solution. Indeed, Israel will not even admit that the territories are occupied and instead calls them “disputed”. If Israel is serious about the peace process these actions must cease. It knows this. The world knows this.

      • Michael

        Lisa, although I have grown to dislike you immensely I agree that Israel must desist in Gaza.

        But I do not think they can realistically do this until they have a sense of security and do not have to fear attacks from Hamas.

        This means Hamas has to either accept the 2 state solution and the existence of Israel (which it does not) and stop attacking Israeli and Palestinian civilians or cede power to Fatah (who are secular and less extreme).

        The other thing you all seem to forget it that Hamas is imposing strict Sharia law (based on the Iranian model) in some areas of Gaza. According the a female friend of mine who lives there it is horrible and she cannot go outside with her arms uncovered.

        Hamas has also demolished the homes of Palestinians living near their installations and they are known to embezzle foreign aid. Their leaders become rich while the people starve.

        They are an external force funded by governments outside Palestine and they are a thorn in the side of the peace process.

        They use outdated “asymmetric warfare” techniques that include using their own people as collateral.

        Before Israel leaves Gazans free access to its territory and the outside world Hamas has to either be rooted out and replaced by Fatah or undergo massive internal reform!

      • That is not true about Hamas imposing sharia law and you know it. You’re just doing the Zionist thing by misinforming and distorting information to play on Western fears. If Hamas were like you claim about women then you would see that evident in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, the places where Hamas has the most support and yet these are the most liberal when it comes to how women dress. I dare you to give me one reliable news source on women being made to cover in Gaza.

      • Lisa

        @Michael – you did not say that you agree that Israel must desist from expansion in Jerusalem and the West Bank – you only mention Gaza. Does that mean you disagree and believe Israel should continue settlement expansion there? Since you’ve accused me of twisting your words and putting words in your mouth, I’m asking you to clarify your position.

  37. Michael

    saudiwoman, Here are some articles about the treatment of women by Hamas

    Haaretz article http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-set-to-compel-gaza-women-to-wear-head-covering-1.280748

    Hamas set to compel Gaza women to wear head covering

    ‘General Moral List’ being assembled by the Gaza government to protect Palestinian ‘religion and morals.’

    Senior Hamas officials had claimed, in the wake of Hamas’ June 2007 Gaza takeover, that the organization did not have any intention to turn the Sharia, Islamic religious law into official state regulations.

    Two years later, however, it seems that the Hamas government is slowly introducing more and more regulations in the spirit of the Islamic decrees…

    If you don’t believe the Haaretz article because its author is Israeli

    See this New York Times article
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/world/middleeast/06gaza.html

    See Jihad Rostom, 21, translator See BBC article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8557251.stm

    Further reading

    http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article26026.ece

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/03/04/hamas-bans-men-womens-hair-salons/

    http://undhimmi.com/2009/07/28/hamas-shows-true-colours-orders-women-lawyers-to-cover-up/

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3858181,00.html

    here’s a little something extra to shock you:
    See: BBC.com, Hamas wrecks ‘illegal’ Gaza homes “Hamas, the Palestinian movement which controls the Gaza Strip, has forced residents of a southern town from their homes and demolished their houses. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8687974.stm

    Please admit when you are wrong and admit that my criticisms here are not “Zionist propaganda” but the attempts of a balanced mind to show you some truths which you may not like.

    • Either way that is an internal issue that is not Israel’s business nor does it justify the horrific genocide and land robbery that Israel is committing. Actually what Israel is doing is exactly why moderate Muslims turn to Hamas because they see that the West is not truly “liberal”, “secular” and “democratic” when it comes to Israel and this disillusionment drives them to extremism and into the hands of terrorist recruits.

      • Michael

        Yah, except that the Hamas organization is not of Palestinian origin. They are tools of foreign governments. Which makes this an international issue, not an internal one.

        Also they are a neighbour to Israel and a danger to the stability of both Israel and and Egypt. They are considered by many in the Knesset, Mossad and Egyptian intelligence to be an Iranian/Syrian faction. (This explains the harsh stance of Egypt towards Gaza and its cooperation with Israel since Hamas came to power) The Egyptians have even praised Meir Dagan of Mossad for his opposition to Hamas http://www.themajlis.org/2010/01/17/meir-dagan-the-superman-of-israel

        I agree that Israel’s actions in Gaza have caused the population to radicalize and I do not support the Gaza bombing of 2008. However Hamas is a radical islamist group who even now use violence and intimidation against its own people and I do not see them as a legitimate government in Gaza.

        Hamas only increase the suffering of Palestinians and were instrumental in instigating the Israelis to the point where they acted out of proportion to the situation.

        From one perspective Hamas extremism can be seen as and underlying cause of the Gaza bombing, the blockade and increased Israeli military presence since Hamas came to power.

      • No you have it upside down. Islamic extremism everywhere is partly caused by Israel and partly by American support for Israel. Ask any extremist about why they hate the West, Jews, and Christians and you’ll find that Israel and American made weapons and funding will come up. It’s the argument Bin Laden used to recruit the men who committed the Sept/11 bombing. It’s very conflicting for an Arab Muslim to see how things really are in the region and then to live in the USA as a student or witness via media how things are falsely portrayed and omitted. Otherwise these young men with the whole future ahead of them would not have aborted and done the horrific acts that they did.

      • Michael

        I love that, you validate freedom of speech and then delete my video… Oh the Irony! One day you may see yourself for what you are – The mirror image of what you claim to be against!

  38. s.o.

    Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees

    Well…my (mizrahi) jewish family was forcefully evicted from Baghdad in 1951. I’m pretty sure we don’t have a right of return! Wouldn’t you call that ethnic cleansing?

    • Michael

      s.o I 100% agree with you. The Jews were expelled from Iraq, Iran, Morocco and dozens of other countries in Europe and the middle east yet these people can only focus on Israel oppressing the Palestinians. This is a serious double standard if you ask me.

      I think its because it is easier for them to hate the “other” than realize their own faults and work on correcting them. One person even went as far as to blame Israel and the U.S for pretty much every social problem in the world. Pretty silly is you ask me!

      There have been Kurdish, Armenian and Jewish people massacred in recent history yet these bloggers only focus on Israel. I wonder why? Maybe because they are using Israel and Jews as a scapegoat… hmmmmm. Yup I think that pretty much sums it up!

      They need to look in the mirror and “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” This would disqualify pretty much every country in the region…

      I’m not saying the Palestinians aren’t being oppressed but there are other, sometimes bigger problems in the area (e.g Darfur, Armenia, Kurdistan) that seem to get much less attention than they deserve because the media are way too fixated on Israel…

  39. Lisa

    @Michael, I agree that a one state solution would certainly ease issues with regard to natural resources, displacement of settlers, borders, security, infra-structure, etc, etc. I hope you are right that the religious/ethnic character of the state is less important here in Israel than it is in the U.S.. As you know, there is a very strong Jewish lobby here in the U.S. and though Jews are statistically a very small minority they do tend to be significant donors in political campaigns, and they do try to drive U.S. policy regarding Israel. A loss of a Jewish majority may not be a big deal in Israel but from all indications here it would result in a huge backlash from U.S. Zionists who are also roadblocks in the peace process.

  40. Lisa

    @Michael –

    “theoretically it would not be legal for my name to be divulged”

    Based on what?

    “It constitutes an attempt at intimidation.”

    If you choose to view it that way it’s certainly your prerogative. You said you were from Canada, you denied you were from Canada. I view it as clarification. I’m from the U.S. and I readily admit that my opinions are influenced by the politics and culture of my homeland. Besides, it’s not like I’m going to jump onto my horse with my ten gallon hat and my six shooter and come looking for you. This is just commentary on an interesting blog. We’re all far more likely to die in a plane crash or a car accident or falling in the bathtub than have any harm come to us for posting on this blog.

    • Michael

      My information is based on international privacy law actually, and also the privacy contract of WorldPress.com.

      You are not the only one viewing this information. Were my information posted, anyone could see it and send me hate mail or threaten my life (as this discussion is public).

      I have seen this happen before to other people. Anyway, as long as it doesn’t happen to me I’m fine. And since Saudiwoman has stated that she is all for civil debate I shouldn’t be worried.

      It just freaked me out when she divulged my country of origin like that when she knew I was clouding the issue on purpose (for my own security).

      So lets end this hypothetical discussion.

      I trust in the integrity of our host not to threaten my personal security and right to anonymity.

  41. alabdali

    although my question is so simple and has no direct relation in respect of what you discuss here, but it seems like a puzzle for me and i hope to find the answer. why there is no damn culture for the “state of israel”? i mean they have no traditional music, foods, and something like that like what all nations have or at least like what the Palestinian people have.

  42. Muslima

    Unbelievable.

    I thought that Jews believed that they were not to step in the Holy Land until their prophet came back, or something like that? And the original plans for ‘whereohwherewillIsraelbe’ was in Madagascar. So much for the Holy Land.

    And how can Zionists say stuff like “Israel was made to make a home for the Jews” “The Holocaust must be remembered” “Never again” and then start doing the same things Hitler did to Jews? Only now it’s Israel to the Palestinians? That wall that’s being built….Berlin Wall anyone? Gaza and the West Bank….oh, does anyone remember the Warsaw Ghetto? Refusing rights to and making fun of Palestinians….the Nazis rise again??

  43. Guy

    I do hope this level of debate is going to improve soon…

    For the record, I share the same view on much of what Lisa has said but I don’t think she’s doing too well in sniping all the time at Michael. I think Michael is being genuine and more measured in the solutions he is suggesting and I agree that fellow Arab countries are not helping Palestinians as much as they should but remain divided ( as their enemies wish them to remain). I do wish however that real pressure could be brought upon Israel to stop acting like the world’s pariah and behave like a credible partner for peace. Sadly, I can’t see that happening. Poor Palestinians.

    • Michael

      Thank you “Guy” (I’ll just call you the Dude),
      I left this conversation because I felt that Lisa was not allowing the conversation to go anywhere productive. My solutions are more reasonable because I sometimes work with politicians and I know that a real duologue requires that both sides accept a measure of the blame and agree to work together in a spirit of mutual understanding. This will never happen with accusations of terrorism, fascism and neo-Nazism being flung around out of context so often. Equating Zionism to Nazism is inflammatory and unfair, as is equating Palestinians and Arabs with negative attributes or calling them all Terrorists… I do not see Lisa and Kit solving anything here. Thank G-d neither of them are in positions of power… They are worse than Avigdor Lieberman, Ariel Sharon, Khaled Meshaal and Sheik Hassan Nasrallah all rolled up into one nasty little bundle of hate. What is the world coming to ? Oh well, Lisa has made me less pro Palestinian than I was when I joined this discussion board and kit has only driven home the fact that many Americans are just as stuck in the idea of perpetual conflict, holy war, bigotry and hatred of the “other” that we tend to attribute to Radical Islamists.

    • Lisa

      Guy – I decided it wasn’t worth the effort to try to have an exchange of ideas with Michael. From his first response to me it was obvious that he prefers to engage in individual attacks rather than discussion, but I wish you good luck!

      • Michael

        Ah yes the ever indignant Lisa. you should really try picking on people who deserve it rather than wasting your time attacking moderates. I’ve done a lot of work with Palestinian and Israeli organizations in the interest of promoting peace. Derogatory and inflammatory statements such as yours offend me but I’m sorry if you took my arguments personally. The world works in shades of gray for me and I refuse to take part in the kind of black and white worldview that many on this forum – including yourself- tend to indulge in.

    • Lisa

      Guy – I do agree that unless and until serious pressure is brought on Israel, it will not have the motivation to change its actions and, as you said, “behave like a credible partner for peace.” As for Arab assistance to Palestinians, I think that unless and until the Palestinians are permitted the basic human right of self-determination and recognition of the fundamental liberty to choose their own government, economic assistance from other nations simply eases the suffering of living under siege, a pain killer for an intolerable situation.

      Folks in the U.S. are beginning to awaken to the concept that Israel has become something a very costly friend for us both at home and abroad. We are losing young men and women daily on fronts in Iraq and Afghanistan, neither popular amoung voters, and anyone paying attention to the news realizes that Israel is trigger happy to attack Iran. With two unpopular military fronts already, the last thing this country can bear is another front.

      • Michael

        Israel is an American foothold in the region and its policies are a reflection of American interests. If Israel threatens to bomb Iran its because this is what the United States government wants them to say. It’s good cop bad cop, Israel is the bad cop… simple as that. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan are just as much in the pocket of western powers. Iran, Syria and their allies represent Russian and Chinese interests… It all comes down to oil, of course. But if the U.S succeeds in gaining total dominance in the region it will put Russia and China at their mercy as far as energy is concerned. This is the real reason Israel and the U.S are aligned. Its a war over resources. The fact that the Palestinians are sitting on top of Israels only water supply does not bode well for a separate state. If the Palestinian question can be resolved peacefully it will put the U.S/Israel in a better position but since Hamas is funded by Iran, the U.S and Israel will never give them an inch until they have been ousted. If Hamas can be done away with I think the Palestinians will get a state. But as I have already said I think the only real solution would be a more inclusive bi-national state that includes Israelis and Palestinians. Israel’s demographic is already moving in that direction and I think it will inevitably become a reality with time.

  44. ADISA ABDOUL JALAL

    call me

  45. Abdul Karim AL Ghassani

    أهلا هناك, هل أنت مع متعة وبعد نظركم الموقع?

  46. Ungrateful man known walking Ibosrh time
    Our hearts have become stone of patience as we carry
    Wayne Yadonia we meet safety and concern anybody who asks inevitable
    What is the defect in time defect Bnfos humans

  47. Reem

    Gotta say, you guys still haven’t felt the post-Zionist age conquering the net.

    My advice? Check out
    mondoweiss.net
    maxblumenthal.net
    normanfinkelstein.org
    …..

    And these are only some sites run by Jews who oppose injustice in Palestine.

  48. Soraya

    ”For the record, there is as much in common with a Pakistani Muslim and an Arab Muslim as there is in common between an Italian Catholic and an American Protestant. “

    All Muslims believe in the Koran.

    All Christians believe in the New Testament.

    While the Bible can be interpreted, the Koran has less leeway for interpretation according to Muslim scholars. The claim is that the Koran is a package that must be swallowed whole.

    ”I know Americans are infamous for their arrogance and self-centeredness but come on we don’t care that much about them. What pushed those Saudis to do such a thing is the USA’s unwavering commitment and support for Israel.”

    Now, that is funny. Americans don’t care about Arabs either other than having learned not to trust them. Oddly, as much as the Arabs cry about the Palestinians, they do not seem to give them unwavering support and commitment.

    Arabs are infamous for their arrogance and self-centeredness not to mention their belief that their poop doesn’t stink, as evidenced by their “modern” expat/slave culture and unwillingness to help their fellow Muslims. Very few Arabs have stepped up to the plate to help with the Pakistan floods. The U. S. is always at the forefront of humanitarian aid in the world while the wealthy Arabs go shopping for haram infidel goods. Many Arab states, including filthy rich Saudi Arabia get U. S. aid to fight the terror and corruption that they, themselves created. Egypt has gotten $28 billion over the last 3 decades. Iraq $7.4 billion since 2003. Lebanon got $67.5 million in 2009. Palestinians have gotten $2.9 billion since 1994.

    If Israel disappeared tomorrow Islamic terror would without a doubt still remain in Darfur, in Somalia, in the Arab gulf states, in Iran, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Europe, in the U. S. in any other land where Muslims reside. What would be the excuse then for the continued violence if peace really came via the current talks?

    The Arabs might want to consider compensating the thousands of Jews who were driven from their homes in Arab states without compensation just as Israel was formed. It’s about an even number to the Palestinians who were urged to leave by the Arabs themselves; an even trade, so to speak.

    ”Just a little more than a century ago we were one country under Ottoman rule.”

    And now, there is lots of infighting among the Arabs and other Muslims, same as it’s always been.

    May the last man standing consider peace. [sigh]

  49. Expat

    saudiwoman

    “From the IP he seems to be in Canada.”
    ____________

    What the! ???

    Eman, the above is unethical. You should remove it.

    Religious types are well known to track people down, threaten and even kill them for exercising their right to free speech.

    The FBI visited that woman because often anti-Israel protests result in violence. This is frequently perpetrated by certain religious people.

    Hamas was semocratically elected because the people of Gaza felt they needed someone strong to protect them from Israel’s persecution and oppression. Now they feel that Hamas has failed, it’s unlikely that they will be reelected.

    Hamas has not only failed, it is doing more persecuting of Gazans than Israel ever did. They voted them in and will likely have a difficult time ever getting rid of Hamas.

    The Arabs keep yelling about “genocide.” Where are the death camps and the millions of Palestinians being exterminated? While I don’t always agree with Israeli tactics, Israel defends itself when the terrorists attack. Splendid what they did just a few days ago to derail the peace process, killing 4 innocent people, one of them a pregnant woman. Hamas has promised more terror, because they don’t really want peace. They want to destroy Israel.

  50. come on people for Heaven’s sake do not refer to wikipedia. At least use some sources with credibility!

  51. Concerned

    If all the Jews shun their arrogance and accept the truth mentioned in the Torah; the problems of mankind will be solved.

    All problems root to the Jews. That is the harsh reality.

  52. Dan

    This film is so one-sided and biased it’s unwatchable. I just wish that all people measured action with reaction and set up the situations as they actually were instead of setting Israel up as the evil oppressor and the Palestinians as passive victims. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you were sharing a living quarters with someone and they killed your cat and dog then that person left your home so that others could kill your family and then you, you would not allow that person to live with you again if you defended yourself successfully. That is what the Israeli’s face with the Palestinians. And because the person is not allowed back into the place he once called home, he hates the other for it and is doing everything in his power to kill the inhabitant — whether it is through violence, influence, and threats. The inhabitant does not hate but understands the hate campaign and takes fair and unfair precautions in order to survive. I hope someday the Palestinains will make the Israelis feel comfortable and wanted in Israel’s Middle East home and I hope the Palestinians will have a home in Gaza and the West Bank which is vibrant and free from outside interference. Peace and Progress!

  53. Kit

    Hey Michael……your welcome. Keep up the good fight.

    • Michael

      Kit, I thought this conversation was over?
      What do I have to be grateful to you for? You’re a bigot… I don’t like you any more than kate and I think you need to stop picking on the Palestinians. They deserve the same rights as anyone else “Judea and Sumaria” are the occupied territories and the region was called Palestine up until Israel declared its self a nation. The fact that Jews now live there is fine by me, but they need to be tolerant and stop building settlements. My perspective on what is going on has changes dramatically since I started commenting on this blog. Yes Israel exists and has the right to do so, but the Gaza bombing was too much, and Israel’s refuasl to negotiate fairly has lost them a lot of my sympathy! (This coming from Jewish guy who supported Israel for years). I don’t want my people associated with genocide and we need people around the world to understand that Israel’s recent actions in Gaza and the continued building of settlements are not condoned by the majority of the Jewish Diaspora! I believe that Israel has gone too far, we need to loosen up or grip on these people and give them full and real autonomy OR integrate them as equals into a bi-national state!

      • Kit

        Michael….your of course entitled to your opinions, though we disagree on the facts & the solution, except of course that Lisa is a big mouth old cult that needs to leave American & live in an Islamic majority country where her rights as a woman can be fully appreciated while wearing the required bee suit in public to hide her ugly mug.

        You will also note I’ve never used an ad hominim comment toward you. Nor did I throw you under the bus, like Saudiwoman did, by disclosing your IP address. No need for name calling or personal attacks.

        Your thumbs up can be attributed to me, as your thumbs down were from fugly & Saudiwoman. I also did my part to offset her own thumbs ups she did herself.

        My issue is with Islam, not muslims. It’s a totalitarian authoritative political “way of life” ideology that has produced a retarded culture & needs to be stopped. Muslims are as much a victim of this mind virus supremist mentality. And we disagree that the Arab created refugees “deserve” anything. Let them be integrated in the local repressive Arab countries.

        I’m of the opinion that ALL of the British mandated lands should have been shared by the Jews & Arab created refugees from the beginning after the West received these lands after taking it from the Ottoman Empire that controlled these lands for almost 400 years. It was first planned to be a 50/50 shared deal, until it evolved into a 5/95% deal, where the Jews got backstabbed . In hindsight, we should have retain control, as least the mineral rights….DAH!

        The Jewish culture has been here in America since the beginning & have contributed greatly to our success. The majority of Americans & the USA Congress support their right to exist. Though we must also thank Islam & muslims for their contribution to slavery. I’ll stick with the Jews that actually contribute to the advancement of humanity.

        I believe that Europe made a big mistake in allowing the genocide of 6 Million + Jews & has in effect traded them, the last 30 years, for 20+ million unproductive welfare seeking muslims that has been taxing their social programs & budgets….they are now literally paying the price. They understand now, after a long sleep, that multiculturalism has failed, as Canada too is now waking up, right?

        Gaza is an example of what an Islamic culture produces, it currently is a massive Welfare state that the West supports, as it continues to produced nothing and is governed by an Islamic mafia. They will fail as a people, as the World moves forward.

        My solution is to rename Jordan, Palestine & they can then have a state. All muslims must then leave the Israeli territories & be assisted if necessary or sent to paradise if they are Islamist or want to wage Jihad.

        Your desire is noble, but unrealistic just by the numbers of claimed “palestinians” that would flood Israeli lands. The “two-state” solution will never work, besides neither side wants it. You still have 5.5 million Jews surrounded by 300 million Arabs/muslims. Do the math.

        America, the West, & India need to stand behind & protect the only democratic country in the region.

        I believe Israel didn’t go far enough in Gaza….best if they would have at least claimed the northern area & then given bus rides to the Arabian Peninsula border.

        Israel needs to reclaim Gaza, Samaria & Judea with the help of the USA…..though maybe the Middle East will implode & it will all work out too?

      • Lisa

        @Michael, I know you don’t need or want a pat on the back from me, but it is very impressive when someone not only changes their point of view but has the courage to say it out loud.

      • Robert

        @Michael. You seem well read and intelligent, so let me ask you a question that I have been unable to answer. How does Israel gain security guarantees? The situation is hopeless and the population on both sides is mired in turmoil. I believe moderates from both sides want peace, but how can Israel concede strategic territory that was key terrain in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. The UN has thus far proven impotent. Militarily, Israel needs to control the flow of arms through these areas. The Palestinian Authority was unable to control the launch of rockets, mortars, and the influx of bombs and missiles. I’m sensitive to the human plight and the rights of all parties, but I don’t see a military solution.

      • Michael

        Robert, Israel would gain security guarantees be assuring the well being of Palestinians. If you have something to live for, it’s less likely that you will want to be a suicide bomber and if Palestinians are given a chance at life, they will be less susceptible to the manipulations of terrorist groups that play on their suffering to recruit them. I’m a realist and I don’t think this could happen right away but a step in the right direction would be to dismantle settlements in the West Bank and to allow aid into Gaza… Phasing the checkpoints out and dismantling the separation wall would be the second step. The third step would mean integrating the two populations into a single state under a similar arraignment to the Northern Irish one. The two state solution died with the settlements I’m afraid…

  54. I know the conversation ended ages ago on this thread, but you really can’t call the policy of Israel towards the Palestinians ‘genocide’ when the Palestinian population has increased from a couple of hundred thousand to 1.2 million under this state of affairs.

    I wish you well with your hopes for freedom, but am despondent at seeing such lines coming from such an educated and intelligent person.

  55. Tamar

    Strange….America has invested, ….when we had intelligent administrations in charge, just as much into Arab nations as Israel. Such as Kuwait,SA, Jordan, and at one point Lebanon….never has there been a nation called Palestine on any map…EVER!

    That being said …I enjoy your blog, and hope you ideals are realized in reaching freedom and prosperity for all and that women will lead the way.

    Women in this country led the way through a bizarre march of conflicting attitudes. Normal productive women raising children and working through their educated lives have ZERO to do with such outfits as National Organization for Women who cry victim every time someone looks at them wrong, turn to burn their bra, and cry for democracy but turn and cheer for abortion and savagely attack any woman with a brain. The women of the left who claim to be free and liberal are the most oppressive in their outlook and are as backward as the stoneage itself. They are the women of supposed “democracy”…ha….Hillary has supported more abortions which has resulted in a genocide in itself. The supposed progressive women of the Democrat party are noting more that anti human commuinist who also subscribe to Fabian socialism and are liars of the wost kind and speak with the forked tongue of propaganda. The will cheer for the people of Egypt….but were secretly cheering for Qudaffi. Yep….those who speak for democracy….are not necessarily speaking of freedom but rather world control “they say they are against” out of one side of their mouth, but support the world control with their action! Both Obama and Hillary are government control freaks!

    • Michael

      Palestine is the geographical location. It has been called Palestine since prior to the Roman Empire. Was referred to as Palestine by the Crusaders, and if you want to go way back in history and assuming that the Bible is accurate (the way the Zionists did when they chose to colonize the land), the Philistines lived on that land before Moses showed up with his followers. Sorry Tam, your arguments are pretty weak!

  56. We (the Palestinians) are Thank you very much from the depths of our hearts.
    I am proud when I see the Arabs stand with us with full force here, and I salute you for your efforts.

  57. Ben

    I enjoyed reading your blog, was sad to see that even though you have the courage to stand up to injustices done to women in parts of the Arab world, you take the same old tired Arab stand when it comes to Israel rather than being at all objective.

    • Michael

      Ben, “same old tired Arab stand” do you realize how racist you sound?
      I agree that the film isn’t objective but not very many things in this world are… She is making a point with the documentary. Not working for a news channel that claims to be unbiased. This is a blog, not the BBC. Most people here (including you, Ben) have a clear bias. Also, many Israeli Jews are Arab. The two are not mutually exclusive. Arab refers to a race, “Muslim” and “Jew” to religions. In Israel there are Semitic “Arab” Jews and Caucasian Jews. African Jews, Indian Jews… so stop making silly generalizations like that please!

  58. Sandra

    There is nothing wrong, with supporting a friend. Israel + USA = friends.

  59. Chuck

    History states that this conflict started during the Ottoman Empire under the rule of Sultan Abdul-Hamid II. Abdul-Hamid encouraged modernization in communications, education, and the military in order to strengthen his control. When he began his rule, Palestine had no railroad, hardly any carriage roads, and no developed port. There were few medical services, and disease and illiteracy were widespread. Within a few years of Abdul-Hamid’s accession, new roads were opened, and European companies completed a railroad between Jerusalem and Jaffa in 1892 and another between Haifa and Deraa, Transjordan, in 1905. In reorganizing the Ottoman Empire and attempting to strengthen central control by using European engineers and investors, the sultans, paradoxically, encouraged the very European penetration of Palestine they were seeking to prevent. The first small group of the new movement, known as Chibbat — or Chovenei-Zion (Lovers of Zion) — numbering fourteen and including one woman, landed at Jaffa on July 7, 1882. The French philanthropist Baron Edmond de Rothschild bought land from the Arab effendis (landowners), now and then using bribes to do so, and drove the fellahin (peasants) off the land. They were then replaced by Jewish settlers. By 1900 he had subsidized over 350 families and 19 Jewish settlements. The second wave of Jewish immigration, which began in 1904, was made up of many young Russian pioneers who were committed to a return to the land. The new pioneers were strongly influenced by socialist ideas, and many belonged to the Poalei-Zion (Socialist or Labor Zionist) party that was formed between 1903 and 1906. Among the leaders of this group were David Ben-Gurion and Izhak Ben-Zvi. By 1914, there were about forty Jewish settlements in Palestine, owning about 100,000 acres. According to Justin McCarthy, in his study of the population of Palestine, the total population at that time was approximately 722,000, of whom approximately 60,000 were Jews.

    “The Ottoman Empire entered WWI in November 1914 on the side of Germany and Austria, and against England, France and Russia.”

    “In 1916 Husayn, the sharif of Mecca of the Hashimite family, came out in revolt against the Ottoman sultan, and an Arab force, recruited partly from beduin of western Arabia and partly from prisoners or deserters from the Ottoman army, fought alongside the allied forces in the occupation of Palestine and Syria. This movement had followed correspondence between the British and Hysayn, acting in contact with Arab nationalist groups, in which the British had encouraged Arab hopes of independence (the McMahon-Husayn correspondence, 1915-1916).”
    “An Anglo-French agreement of 1916, while accepting the principle of Arab independence laid down in the correspondence with the sharif Husayn, divided the area into zones of permanent influence (the Sykes-Picot Agreement, May 1916); and a British document of 1917, the Balfour Declaration, stated that the government viewed with favor the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, provided this did not prejudice the civil and religious rights of the other inhabitants of the country.”
    “On 28 June 1917, General Allenby was appointed commander of the British Army in the Middle East, and he mounted an attack aimed at breaking the Turkish lines in Palestine and Syria and arriving at the rear of the Turks in Anatolia. On 31 October 1917, he captured Beersheba and moved northwards, whilst the Germans and Turks were attempting to create a line of defence around Jerusalem. Allenby quickly pressed forward towards the north in two columns passing through the Judaean desert. He engaged the joint Turkish-German army in a fierce battle which took place to the west of Jerusalem on 8 and 9 December 1917 and, having defeated them, he approached Jerusalem, dismounted from his horse and entered the Holy City on foot, to be welcomed by its inhabitants. In September 1918 the other parts of Palestine were occupied.
    A new era then began in Palestine. Taken out of Ottoman hands, it entered into the British Mandate period, which continued for the next thirty years.”
    The League of Nations divided the territory [formerly under Ottoman rule] into new entities, called mandates. The mandates would be administered like trusts by the British and French, under supervision of the League, until such time as the inhabitants were believed by League members to be ready for independence and self-government…
    The mandate territories were Syria and Lebanon, awarded to France; Iraq, awarded to Britian; and a new entity called Palestine, which was also placed under British control. Palestine, as defined for the first time in modern history…included the land on both sides of the Jordan River and encompassed the present-day countries of Israel and Jordan.”

    Out of the broad region known as Palestine, Britian carved two political entities in 1921. One entity consisted of the rea of Palestine east of the Jordan River; it was named the ‘Emirate of Transjordan,’ and later simply ‘Jordan’… In the western half of Palestine, between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, Palestinian Arabs and Zionist Jews wrestled for control under the British umbrella.”
    “On February 14, 1947, the British cabinet decided, in effect, to wash its hands of Palestine and dump the problem in the lap of the United Nations.”
    “On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13 with 10 abstentions to partition western Palestine into two states — one for the Jews, which would consist of the Negev Desert, the coastal plain between Tel Aviv and Haifa, and parts of the northern Galilee, and the other for the Palestinian Arabs, which would consist primarily of the West Bank of the Jordan, the Gaza District, Jaffa, and the Arav sectors of the Galilee. Jerusalem, cherished by both Muslims and Jews as a holy city, was to become an international enclave under U.N. trusteeship.
    The Zionist, then led by David Ben-Gurion, accepted this partition plan, even though they had always dreamed of controlling all of western Palestine and Jerusalem. The Palestinian Arabs and the surrounding Arab states rejected the partition proposal. They felt that Palestine was all theirs, that the Jews were a foreign implant foisted upon them, and that they had the strength to drive them out.

    Getting the picture yet? Or should I keep going?

  60. Yahya Sulayman

    To hate human beings is wrong.
    To hit human beings is evil.
    To judge human beings is futile.
    To envy human beings is banal.
    To love human beings is inevitable.
    Mice are more intelligent than humans.
    Mice do not fight to the death.

  61. I am trying to write a blog agianst zionism as a ideology, which I think is a better way than resorting to a war. It must be confronted interlectually, before miltarily and hopefully not millitarily at all.

  62. Hey! start a revolution agianst the zionists now and good luck with doing so!
    May Allah be with you in doing so and please can some one translate my article at: http://refutingzionism.blogspot.com/2011/08/start-revolution-agianst-israel.html

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  65. mk

    Arab Like Me
    By Lee Habeeb
    February 15, 2012 4:00 A.M.
    There are two kinds of Arabs in this world. Those who hate Jews, and those who don’t. And in my life, I have met more of the former than the latter.
    I am not proud to say that. Arabs will not like me for admitting it. But it is true. And it is something I wish the Obama administration understood. It is something Americans should know as the “Arab Spring” enters its second year.
    I didn’t know much about any of this as a Lebanese kid growing up in New Jersey. But I found out about it when I wrote my first pro-Israel column for my college paper as a young student journalist.
    I defended Israel on some point I’ve long forgotten, but what I’ll never forget is the backlash I received from fellow Arabs. Some were Americans, others were students from Arab countries, many of whom I counted as friends.
    First came the letters to the editor, then the personal insults. It was as if I’d broken a secret code I didn’t know existed. Some secret blood oath, which goes something like this: Arabs don’t speak unkindly of Arabs in public, or kindly about Israel.
    The backlash stunned me. I pondered the pounding I had taken, and floundered a bit. I even thought for a short time of writing something negative about Israel the next time I had a chance, just to balance things out and reestablish my Arab bona fides.
    One friend accused me of being a self-hating Arab. He explained to me that I was exploiting my ancestry to ingratiate myself with white America and the Jews who controlled white America.
    I explained to him that I was white. And that I was an American. And that I didn’t believe that Jews controlled America. The Jewish men I knew had a hard enough time controlling their own families! But nothing I said helped relieve the tension, not even my stab at humor.
    I also explained that many of my Jewish friends did not like my column. Most were liberals from New York or northern New Jersey who assumed I was with them on the politics of the Middle East, that I was in agreement with the governing thesis that drives most Arabs and liberal Jews: that it is Israel that is the problem in the region, not the Palestinians, and not the Arab world itself.
    I also explained to him that I was mostly Lebanese, but also part German and part Italian, and that I was raised by parents who didn’t much care for the whole notion of hyphenated America. They taught me to think for myself, and have the courage to challenge authority. Even theirs, if I could make the case.
    The fact is, Arabs don’t all look alike or think alike. But we are often pushed into a kind of groupthink, a kind of self-censorship that hinders our development and our understanding of ourselves and the world around us.
    We are not a universal group. But some of us believe in a simple universal truth: that every Arab deserves to live in freedom, wherever he or she might call home. Some of us want Arab countries to be more like America and Israel, places where the individual can flourish.
    Say those words to many Arabs and they are shocked and angered. Soon, words like imperialist are thrown about, and the subject turns to Israel. Always, it seems, it turns to Israel.
    Why the anger when I hint that America and Israel might have something to teach the Arab world? I thought about it for the longest time, and only recently stumbled upon the answer.
    It is all about Arab self-doubt. It is all tied to a profound lack of cultural self-confidence, and a deep-seated fear that maybe, just maybe, Arabs won’t be very good at the self-governance thing. That Arab nations won’t be capable of building democratic cultures that engender the flourishing of human freedom, and that these nations won’t have the ability to tap the God-given talents of their people the way Americans and Israelis do.
    That maybe, just maybe, the Arab world will never measure up to America or Israel.
    Better, goes the logic, to cling to anger over the plight of the Palestinians. Better to cling to international policy disputes and to a deep-seated hatred of Israel. Better to play the role of victim, and the role of self-righteous critic, than to do the hard work of lifting up the conditions of your people.
    An Arab American friend of mine who works for a large NGO is a case in point. He is Jordanian, he’s well educated, and he speaks five languages. But mention the word Israel, and watch his blood boil immediately. He will go into a lengthy diatribe about the injustices perpetrated against the Palestinians by Israel. When Prime Minister Netanyahu’s name is mentioned, I worry that he will have a seizure on the spot.
    Why is this? Why is all of his passion, all of his anger and rage, directed at this one country, this one people?
    Why is it not directed at Syria, I ask him? By all accounts, the Syrian government orchestrated the assassination of one of the Arab world’s great men of peace, former Lebanese prime minister Rafic Hariri. And President Assad continues to terrorize his own people.
    Why not at Hezbollah, which orchestrated the takeover of Lebanon?
    Why not at Hosni Mubarak when he was in power? Or Saddam Hussein?
    Why not at the ways in which Islam degrades women in the Middle East, trapping them in a life of servitude?
    Why not at the ways some Muslims are persecuting Christians throughout the Middle East, as reports pour in about atrocities upon atrocities?
    Why not a critique of the Koran itself, which regrettably finds little separation between mosque and state, thus relegating the majority of Arabs to life under theocratic regimes?
    Two reasons: fear, and envy.
    To the dismay of Arabs around the world, Jewish people turned an ancient piece of real estate in the Middle East into a thriving oasis of intellectual, political, religious, and commercial activity, where people are free to do as they please. One of the oldest places on earth — a place where Abraham walked — Israel is as thoroughly modern as any place on earth, with a functioning government that respects religious and economic freedom.
    A young person in Israel can choose to work in some of the best high-tech companies in the world, or can pursue a life dedicated to Talmudic studies. A woman has an equal right to pursue any career she likes, and people of different sexual orientations are not driven underground — or worse.
    The fact is, the God-given talents of the people of Israel are allowed to flourish in ways Arabs should want to emulate, and replicate.
    This smart, dynamic Jordanian friend instead focuses on border disputes and the acts of the Israeli government. He performs Houdini-like intellectual twists to dodge my questions, which are always gentle, but cut right through to his very clear — and almost programmed — bigotry.
    I ask him why he is obsessed with the 1967 border dispute, and not some other border grudge, as it would not take long to find other countries unhappy with the ways in which territories were allocated as spoils of various 19th- and 20th-century wars.
    I tell him that using his logic, Mexican terrorists should be blowing themselves up in Houston and El Paso. And they should have his unwavering support to compel America to return Texas to its rightful, original owner.
    I now ask Arabs who show such a knee-jerk reaction to Israel a simple question, one that cuts to the heart of all this nonsense: Why do you hate Jews?
    They first get angry, but then quickly point out that they have no beef with Jews. It’s Israel they hate.
    To which I reply, “If Israel had been handed over to Bolivians or Albanians or Estonians, would you still hate it?”
    It is a none-too-subtle question, but it makes the point: Despising Israel the way Israel is despised in much of the Arab world is all about anti-Semitism. And most anti-Semitism anywhere in the world has its origins in envy.
    Benjamin Netanyahu once gave a speech in which he pointed at a map of the Middle East. He rattled off many of the countries in the region, and the relative size of those nations to Israel. Jordan is four times the size of Israel, Iraq 20, Egypt 46; Saudi Arabia is nearly 90 times the size of Israel.
    “Big countries,” he said. “But small accomplishments.”
    He then went on to describe Israel, which is just slightly bigger than one of America’s smallest states, New Jersey.
    “Little country,” he concluded. “But big accomplishments.”
    And there you have it, in one perfectly formulated binary.
    Today, Arabs are at a crossroads. The “Arab Spring” is an opportunity like none the region has ever seen. The people who live there are no more or less capable than the people of Israel or the United States.
    But it is up to them to build functioning democracies, and a culture that breeds and rewards hard work and success. It is up to Arabs themselves to take advantage of their newfound freedom, and unleash the productive capacities of their people.
    Countries aren’t built on spite and hate, but on love, trust, shared sacrifice, and hard work. Maybe, just maybe, Arabs in the Middle East will be so busy working, yearning, and striving to make their own lives better that they will have little time left to burnish old grievances.
    Maybe, over time, Arabs will build governments worthy of their people, as Israel and America have done.
    Maybe, Arabs will come to see Jews not as their enemies, but as their neighbors, and as their trading partners.
    And maybe, just maybe, as their friends.
    Here is one Arab praying that will happen.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/291094/arab-me-lee-habeeb

  66. in all toot here just remeber, that when u see some body rong try and make the person under wher u doe’s not like of him, because no one is paffect, so the arab and other middle east should not forget the life and homan light, civilisaction, come from american, even u that is talking today, should not talk religionsly, because when u are 2 religionsly, that menas u are resisss to mankind and womankind, ok, just use ur turng and count ur titi in ur mounth, there is no way u will count a much furth on americans, they surffer for u people in times of civilisaction, and save must of u people arab that is enjoying the life today, from bundange of bad culture to good culture, yes u are born and brutop o, muslim, is good u surport ur people but yr and surport them for good and peace of the world, because everybody will die and face his or her jugement, ok and there ur fake or older man said that they are prophate, will not said u, where they can chnage some one to go and die for there own selfish intention of life, pls if anything u want to understand about my comment u can reply to me here i will reply back, pls i am an mistar no religion, just God is one, and i am not america or isreal, ok just say the trought aznd througt will set u freee……… so when u talk about bad of one, pls never forget to talk good side of him, because this iss haterred pls….. fter all there surffed, yes i no the problem all is about money ok,….

  67. Jae

    My real question is, if the Palestinian people are so important to other Arabic speaking countries, then why not establish a large chunk of Jordan or even Saudi Arabia to take in the Palestinian refugees who do not wish to live in land that is close to Jews and call it New Palestine?

    Why are Palestinian children taught to hate Jews in their textbooks?
    (obviously not going to the help the situation any).

    Why are there many thousands of Arabs and Muslims still living in Israel proper and do not want to live in the Gaza strip?

    I think there are people on both sides who paint the other as entirely evil, but at the same time you have to ask yourself what is going on in Gaza exactly? Israel gave up one of its very successful industries (flower growing) to the Palestinians and it ended up destroyed. I don’t think it was because of everyday Palestinians who moved there…I think it was their insanely corrupted government-A government that tells kids to blow themselves up, hate people who are not Muslim, and blames all their problems on the West instead of fixing problems in their own country.

    There can be no peace between Israel and Palestine as long as the Palestinians continue to tell their children to hate and continue to have a government funded on terror.

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  69. Assalaam Alaikum,
    Dear Brother and Sister

    If you really knew how hard time I am suffering here, or you would understand, I am sure brothers and sisters ,please don’t say anything will hart me, even though you cannot help me, Allah Khareem, life of this world is a trail, I m writing this latter my tear started foaling over my cheek, I made Dhuaa, I trust Allah only, loving Muslim brothers and sisters, may be to help me ,may be for another trail for me, (Imthihaa)Allah Khareem, Al-Hamdulillhi, whatever He decides, He love people who are patient , In Shaa Allah, I will be patient. I am on His way..

    my brother and sisters in Islam, I did not won’t tell you all this thing till now, we have not eaten proper food since months, only some Rotti, some rice and vegetable gravy sometimes only gravy now it’s been 2 months, last week 4 day we had only black tea and some biscuit one 2 times a day, our daughter did not sleep many nights, because she have no milk to during the night and day, I am staying in a rented house in abroad,

    House owner is behind me asking to pay the rent since weeks, including this month electric bill is not paid for 2 month, before coming month if I not pay, my light will be disconnect,

    My wife is pregnant, now its been 7 months coming may 27th should be deliver. We need help have nothing..

    wife is should been consulted doctor that also I was not able to do accordingly, last week’s she has not taken medicines that she should take every day, have no money to buy them, I did not want this issue to local community since we are foreigner,

    Also the local people here is very pure, they have some hard life then me, may be,

    wife is Thyroid patient, she must take 150 grm levothryoxine, according doc.because some times its coming up, luckily we have only 100 gm thryoxine tab.she is taking that only she must take 50 mg more. no money to buy,

    infarct I write in the comment box to help me I mean it, I also bear witness Al-Mighty Allah for this truth,

    My brothers and sisters, Allah knew everything what is hidden, myself in this situation it can be trail for me as well for other may be for you as well,

    I can sand all documents to you to proof my case,
    we are so mush disparate please help me and my family help us only for sake of Allah, it’s a far cry dot let me down,

    this day can come to any one my dear brothers and sisters, last night also I saw my wife is cry because our situation, it make me so hard to see that,

    what I knew is when any human being saying that Allah is the Rubbu, Allah will make Imthikhaan His slaves, Gadderallah khair,

    My pray will be with and all Muslim family all around the world.
    Once you help me soon you can find some thing good will happen with you, I trust Allah, Allah help will come soon. In Shaa Allah, Ameen

    this is only a Asbaabu, Allah have the authority to do anything,
    Baarakallah laki.
    Wassalaam Alaikum,
    Hassan
    Hafizu Student
    Emil me / mdshsh_76@yahoo.com

  70. Lisa

    Ah – the troll again. How many tries did it take you before you before this post was allowed to stay for more than a millisecond? Since your village is missing its idiot you better run along home.

  71. Lisa

    What a contradiction you are: you’re all in favor of Israel killing Palestinian women and children but if your own country was attacked you’d just roll over in bed and go back to sleep. What a surprise – Kit’s a card carrying pacifist who only talks tough when it comes to Islam. So which is it: are you a liar or a hypocrite? Don’t bother to answer – no one really cares what you think.

  72. Lisa

    @Michael, and I join you in prayers for peace but I also pray for justice because without justice there can be no peace.

  73. Michael

    Lisa,

    In the grand scheme of things I don’t think many people care what you think either.

    You and Kit, as I have stated before are equally racist and equally bigoted. You hate Zionism with a passion because you need something on which to lather your significant reserve of hatred and bitterness. You say “Zionism” but what you really hate is most likely the state of Israel, possibly Israeli citizens and Jews as a whole.

    Kit dislikes religion in general but particularity Islam (which strikes me as odd since all three monotheistic religions are practically the same thing). I don’t like her comments any more than I like yours but since you have been targeting me personally and accusing me of all sorts of things I figure I should speak up.

    Had you refrained from insulting me personalty and stuck to civil conversation I would have been easier on you since I understand how kit’s views would offend many people. I am a peaceful man with no political affiliations or aspirations in the middle east. Only a keen interest in finding real solutions to conflict

    Your attempts at making me the eternal bad guy allow me to sympathize with Kit as a fellow victim of your unashamed intimidation and character assassination.

    I like to debate and I like intelligent people with a common goal for peace. Your goal is not peace but vindication based on nationalism, self professed hate and closed mindedness.

    You have the less than admirable quality of hating anyone who does not see things your way.

  74. Lisa

    Michael – look in the mirror – you’re talking about yourself.

    Maybe I could talk to you in about ten years once you’re out of your 20′s – but for now I’ve no more time for your childish rants and self-important strutting. Seriously, go finish your degree before you try to argue with the grown ups.

  75. Michael

    My age and how many degrees I have is none of your buisness. For your information, You are talking to an author in his 30′s, with a PHD

  76. Michael

    Lisa, you really do make me sick and I wish you had a better amount of respect. If low-blows, exaggerated stats and nitpicking comments on spelling are all you can come up with. I am disappointed that I took the time to debate you.
    Go back to whatever hole you crawled out of!

  77. Lisa

    Michael, you really are the worst sort of fanatic who won’t change his mind and can’t change the subject, and you’re frustrated cause you can’t persuade anyone here either. Why do you continue banging your head against the wall? You must be either a masochist or too cheap to pay for therapy. Either way, you’re spinning your wheels. However, for the sake of clarity, even if you could persuade anyone of what seems to be your primary argument (not that it’s really clear what your point is other than attacking posters here) that the suffering of the Palestinians is not solely the fault of Israel, the next question is “what then”? Assuming arguendo that Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Saudi and Lebanon accept responsibility for having contributed to the misery of the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation, how does an acceptance of responsibility provide any solution to the occupation? How does that further the peace process? I can think of no useful purpose to your demands other than to somehow assuage Israel’s guilt to some marginal degree, so I ask you – what possible difference does it make? And I would also ask that you for once try to offer a direct answer to a question, noting that you have evaded answering any direct questions here, and engaged in more mud-slinging than you will admit.

    What’s your point?

  78. Michael

    The subject is Israel and Palestine. Why would I change it?

    You have not done so either…

    We have different views. there’s no use accusing me of fanaticism or mud slinging or racism or Zionism or any of the other nasty accusations you have hurled my way.

    You like to put people in boxes and categorize them as either good or bad. you have decided that I am bad. So there is no use trying to appease you now that you are set in your views.

    My point is that violence on either side does not solve anything. As we are in agreement on the treatment of Palestinians being unjust there is no point arguing about that.

    I am arguing points I know you disagree with because it keeps you thinking. I’m not here to placate you but to challenge your stereotypes and biases for the good of readers.

    I have taken a character for this blog. It is not who I am, my name is not Michael, i am not Canadian, I do not have a Ph.D and I am not Jewish. ( To my credit however, I do speak both Arabic and Hebrew quite badly).

    I do not agree with Israel’s harsh policies in Gaza or your Hamas funded propaganda aside from asserting that peace in necessary, that the Palestinians deserve to be left in peace as long as they agree to be peaceful themselves and that Israel’s borders and the creation of a Palestinian state are not as big a deal as you make them out to be.

    What is a big deal is that both peoples be allowed to achieve economic prosperity without fear of annihilation. Violence always destroys economic prosperity as we have seen in Gaza and Israel.

    If you look at the West Bank, it is doing much better in terms of economy because it is not as violent. Violence from either side, be it “Palestinian resistance” or Israeli “self defense” only helps finance the war machine.

    The free Palestine movement in Gaza has been hijacked by extremists funded by Iran, Syria and (shock and awe) Saudi Arabia the United States and (wait for it) Israeli intelligence agencies! It is no good for Palestinians!

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

    Your hateful speech only helps fund disconnectedness, war and genocide (which you claim to oppose).

    But I do enjoy watching you squirm you little tool…

  79. Lisa

    You’re on drugs.

  80. Michael

    Yah, I’m addicted to the thumbs down I get every time I post a comment. That’s me, just a basement dwelling 15 year old kid with no Ph.D smoking pot and tripping on those thumbs down ratings! Boy oh boy, I wonder what the nasty lady will say next!?

  81. Michael

    The above was a very good documentary.
    Anyway saudiwoman thank you for your blog.
    It is well done, even if your film only shows one side of the debate and if you disagree with the arguments I have presented. You are already doing a lot that I admire by having this blog. I cannot expect you to sympathize, it was too much to ask. An as someone living in the region and whose relatives apparently fought against Israel it would be hypocritical for you to show the Israeli perspective. (As Ari, who fought in the Israeli army felt that he could not show the Arab one). I hope, “Inshallah” there will be peace and that we will never have to go to war again. That the Palestinians reach an agreement with Israel and that the world heals its self through love and compassion. That is my goal and my point. And I’m sure it is yours as well.

  82. Michael

    Re: “You’re on drugs.” By Lisa the Ameri-can’t.

  83. The video is funny but this is not the forum for it so I’m not including it. However I agree with the majority of his points except the double standards of the “freedom of speech”. You are free to say what you want as long as it doesn’t offend Israel and the American Israel lobby. examples: death threats against Noam Chomsky so much so that he has security accompanying him wherever he goes, the recent firings of Octavia Nasr, and Helen Thomas. This is what Muslims see as fake especially when it comes to ignoring genocide and ethnic-cleansing.

  84. Michael

    Meh, the more she censors me and the more Lisa insults me the more I sympathize with you even if I disagree with a lot of what you say.

    Its not fair and now that I realize I will never get my point across I might as well let them wallow in their own hate.

    What amazes me is their inability to accept even a tiny amount of responsibility for the crisis and to blame only Israel and America for everything.

    Its nuts!

    Yah so Israel and America are responsible for a lot but Hello people! It takes two to Tango!

  85. Michael

    And deleting my video was just plain mean… I feel that every time I post something funny or convincing with a lot of proof and articles backing me up she deletes it so that she looks like she is winning the argument…

  86. Michael

    this message was addressed to Kit, whose comment seems to have been deleted And now I look like I’m talking to thin air… Ya lateef!

  87. When did I delete something convincing? I deleted a song and a comedy piece by Bill Maher. This post is a serious matter about people being persecuted just because they are Palestinian. This is not the place for singing praise for the Israeli soldiers who bomb schools and hospitals nor is it a place for laughing at Muslims, Mormons, Catholics…etc.
    Go show those two videos to the people suffering in Gaza, let’s see what they think of your argument and your “funny or convincing with a lot of proof”

  88. Lisa

    @Michael – if you don’t like the way you’re being treated then why don’t you just go start your own blog – then you can do all of the deleting and censoring. If you post a link I’ll even come and visit so you won’t be lonely and I bet Kit would love to keep you company. Two peas in a pod!

    By the way, I note that you didn’t bother to respond to my very clear, unequivocal and extremely civil question – then again, I knew you were too much of a coward to really admit to your views.
    Zionism is racism.
    Michael is a Zionist.
    Michael is a racist.

    Don’t you just love a good syllogism.

  89. Michael

    the video was not about Gaza it was about Islamic fundamentalists versus western ones and death threats against cartoonists made by Islamic fundamentalists.

    It was pertinent because I was arguing that Hamas are Islamic fundamentalists (do I seriously have to spell this out for you).
    Bill Maher has not joked about Gazans suffering. He talked about Islamic fundamentalists and violent censorship/ death threats against westerners.

    And you also deleted my comment with links on the oppression of women by Hamas 3 times before you left it up.

    Anyway, laughter and singing are good for the soul and have been known to brake down barriers and promote mutual understanding.

    If the people suffering in Gaza are unable to oust the Hamas regime they will have a much harder time with Israel and will only suffer more.

  90. Lisa

    Mrs. Eman, I genuinely do not think this individual is here to engage in any serious discussion or civil debate. I’m not quite sure what satisfaction “Michael” receives from this, but I do see a compulsive need to obtain some conciliation, no matter how small or inconsequential, from you and others here who do not share it’s view. I thought the demand that you admit to being wrong was not merely childish but pathological. We do not from “Michael’s” admissions that this person does not have the credentials claimed; here we believe that a self-admitted liar can’t be believed about anything.

    I’m curious whether you have any geographic information about where this individual is posting from?

  91. Lisa

    Sorry – meant to say “We do know from “Michael’s” admissions that this person does not have the credentials claimed. . .”

  92. Michael

    I’m posting from the international space station :P

  93. From the IP he seems to be in Canada.

  94. Michael

    Lisa, I missed you!!!

    Kif al-hal ya saddiqi?

    I was intentionally ignoring your question because I didn’t want to talk to you anymore.
    Not out of any desire to hide my beliefs.

    I just want peace.

    Don’t really care about borders.

    Here’s my solution:

    It would be nice if the Israelis and Palestinians could agree for the entire region of Israel and Palestine to become a united country that is neither Jewish or Muslim exclusively and where everyone lives in harmony and peace

    It could become a crossroads of cultures and religions administered by some sort of bipartisan Knesset like org elected by Palestinians and Israelis alike and consisting of Jews Arabs and whomever else lives there.

    The Jews would be ensured a level of security and a percentage of power in government (like northern Ireland’s Protestants or Lebanon’s Christians).

    The reason this hasn’t happened yet is that the Jews in Israel are afraid the Palestinians will outnumber them and then go crazy and kill them all given half a chance (with all the talk on this forum I can see this happening).

    The Palestinians have been indoctrinated into a culture of hate by Hamas, and (as Saudiwoman mentioned) further re-enforced extremism because of the harsh conditions of their segregation and ill treatment at the hands of the Israeli government.

    The Israeli people are being indoctrinated by their government and ironically by Hamas, who provide the excuse for the Israeli government to say to the people: “Look they hate us and want to kill us, so we can’t give liberty to these Palestinian terrorists or we will all die”

    The Israeli population are prisoners of their collective fear of genocide (reinforced by history and current events) and the Palestinians are prisoners of hate and injustice (reinforced by history and current events)

    The fact that Hamas validates a harsh policy in Gaza is in my opinion the reason why the Mossad funded Hamas.

    Because the more extremist the Palestinians are the less likely they are to get their state because the world will see them as terrorists

    Also the Mossad are using the old method used by the British called “divide and conquer.” They used Hamas to get rid of Fatah, which was the only unified and viable government for a Palestinian state. Now the Palestinians are splintered into factions and weaker because of it. To make things worse, Palestinians are now being oppressed by Hamas and Israel’s government at the same time.

    This Mossad plan backfired when Hamas started receiving funds from Iran, Syria and Islamic jihad groups and started to gain momentum (much like the CIA/Saudi funding of Al-Qaida backfired on America and Saudi Arabia). Now they are fighting Hamas in the same scenario that America is fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan.

    The Palestine/Israel area can be called whatever it wants for all I care as long as people stop killing each other and living in hate an fear, funding the money-making war machine (and the pockets of arms dealers and oil barons) with their continued aggression and hate towards each other.

    Basically the Israelis and Palestinians are being used as a cashcow for a war/oil based economy all over the world. For this to stop they need to stop hating each other.

    But that won’t happen any time soon with people like you out there will it Lisa?

  95. Michael

    Just for fun,

    Here’s another syllogism for you.

    Lisa Hates Zionists

    The majority of Jewish people in the world support Israel

    Thus Lisa hates the majority of Jews in the world

    Which makes Lisa an anti-Semite

    Sorry,

    I couldn’t resist it!

  96. No Ididn’t delete your comment with the links. I wasn’t at the computer. WordPress automatically spams anything with two more links. I approved it when I saw it. Hamas was semocratically elected because the people of Gaza felt they needed someone strong to protect them from Israel’s persecution and oppression. Now they feel that Hamas has failed, it’s unlikely that they will be reelected.

  97. Here’s a video worth watch that keeps getting taken down due to FBI privacy complaints:

  98. Lisa

    @Michael –

    Merci. Je suis tres bien. Comment allez vous? (There now exhausts my ability to converse in French as, sadly, my ability to speak a second language was derailed by my ghastly French language teacher Sr. Mary Sullivan who insisted that we honk like a Canada Goose when trying to speak the language with authenticity! My advance apologies.)

    I’m genuinely pleased that you posted your thoughts: I think you will find that you and I agree more than we disagree. I would be only too happy to see a peaceful solution – whether it be one nation or two – where Palestinians and Israeli’s can live in peace, prosperity and raise their children without fear of hate driven violence. The last thing I wish for anyone anywhere in the world is another Rwanda. I also think that conciliation begins when we identify the areas where we agree and then tackle the issues of disagreement and obstacles to achieving a solution.

    Also, I would much prefer to engage in civil dialogue here. You and I are equally capable of trading insults but we both have better uses for our time. N’est pas? So, I would like to ask you a further question, in the hopes of furthering civil discourse, and I hope you will reply.

    From my perspective here in the US Northeast, there is a strong and outspoken community which supports Israel as a primarily Jewish state. According to this group, a one state solution is viewed as a threat to the very existence of Israel because in order to maintain the Jewish character of the state, a Jewish majority is necessary. Do you think that this is a majority view point in Israel or are Israeli’s willing to accept the possibility (and I will not profess to know whether this is probable or simply possible) – that Jews could become a minority in Israel? This assumes a complete and total cessation of violence and acceptance of a one state solution by Palestinians so as to eliminate the horrific possibility of another genocide.

    I’m willing to walk the next mile with you and I hope you will accept the offer.

  99. Lisa

    Wow. The woman being interviewed did an excellent job of keeping out of harms way by asserting her rights to keep the agents out of her home and declining to answer questions. If the FBI actually believe she has information they could bring her before a grand jury and immunize her from any prosecution so she would no longer have the right to assert her privilege against self-incrimination.

  100. Michael

    I think the idea of Israel being a primarily Jewish state is not feasible in the long run.

    I agree with this Jewish group that a one state solution would be the end of Israel as a primarily Jewish state but I do not see anything wrong with that.

    And I do not think it is “anti-Semitic” to suggest that the Jews share the land with the Arabs. I don’t think a two state solution would work for anyone because the Palestinians need access to Israel in order to get jobs, food etc… and Israel needs access to water in the West Bank and sea ports in Gaza.

    So neither state would work without the cooperation of the other and it makes most sense to have one bilateral state with a fixed amount of power in the judiciary and government for Jewish people and the Arabs regardless of population increase or decrease on either side.

    Also the Israelis would be allowed to keep their settlements in the West Bank and Palestinians would be allowed to live and work in Israel proper.

    None of this will happen if Hamas continues saying it wants to kill the Israelis. And I think it would take a lot of work for the right level of trust to be built for this to happen.

    Many Jewish people in America are more adamant about Israel remaining primarily Jewish than anyone I know in Israel.

    the issue of the “right of return” would have to be scrapped and the neighbouring Arab nations would have to integrate these people into their society and give them passports.

    Otherwise Israel would be overcrowded and the Jewish people in Israel would never accept that. This is where Arab accountability comes into play.

    Once an agreement is reached with Arab countries to give passports to Palestinian refugees and their descendants living in those nations and as long as Jews are allowed to live in peace I don’t see the high Palestinian population as much of a threat to anyone.

    Once they are given access to modern life I think population growth would normalize. Something akin to the one child law in China may work to start off with in order to avoid overpopulation.

    As cruel as it may sound this would assuage fears on Israels side of having 10 children to every Palestinian family and no space to breath.

    They would have to ban the Niqab and become modern i.e no radical Islamic movements allowed period and cruel punishment for anyone breaking this law.

    Muslim women could wear whatever they want. Like Bill Maher said “this is how we role” and any Palestinians who want to continue subjugating women could go live in Saudi Arabia

    (That’s right, I said it, Saudi oppresses women to a degree unimaginable to Israelis and part of their fear of Palestinians is based on a fear of Radical Islam and their treatment of women)

    These details can be worked out

    According to Niccolo Machiavelli (and I agree with this), when you have an enemy you must either befriend that enemy entirely or destroy the enemy entirely.

    I think at this point Israel has a choice to make in this regard. And that choice will reflect on the true nature of the state of Israel and its professed ideals.

  101. Michael

    oooh exposing me now are you? That’s not very fair. You’re not supposed to run around spilling the beans on my all time favorite secret.

    Also, if you decide to publish my IP address or e-mail address, or full name on your blog I may get death threats or nasty letters from your readers. The responsibility for which I will naturally attribute to you…

    This would be very bad for your reputation as an advocate of civil debate and you may even be implicated as having breached certain privacy laws as well as ethical and moral codes related to my rights to keep this information private.

    If I receive even one e-mail about this conversation I will trace the leaked information back to you in a heartbeat!

    I will subsequently contact the necessary channels and authorities.

    I hope you do not decide to play this very ugly game. How would yo like it if I published the details of yourself and every other member of this forum and their names, location an home phone numbers on a public forum?

    Not very good I should think…

    Thank you for keeping my information private from this point on. To do otherwise would constitute a threat to my personal security and as importantly it would be to break the trust I put in your integrity when I started posting on this forum.

  102. Michael

    my latest post was addressed to the monitor of this forum after she speculated publicly on the origin on my IP address

  103. Lisa

    @Michael – regarding internet privacy – your i.p. address is your calling card and unless you use a mask to disguise yourself, you leave your trail everywhere you go. However, your i.p. address is just a generalized coordinate – it doesn’t identify who and where you are with any specificity and unless you are a member of law enforcement the information isn’t going to lead anyone to your door. If you’re concerned about your privacy and security then you should use a mask and don’t give out your personal email address. It’s no different than protecting an unlisted phone number.

  104. Michael

    Thanks,

    I’ll do that from now on!

    I’m not a secret service agent or a member of law enforcement, so don’t worry… but were anyone to publish my e-mail address or location on this blog I would consider my rights violated and I would contact both of the above immediately.

  105. Lisa

    @Michael – hate to tell you but, you could contact the FBI, the CIA, the Mounties and Interpol and everyone in between and they wouldn’t do diddly squat for you.

  106. Lisa

    Michael – a syllogism has a major premise, a minor premise which supports the major premise, and a conclusion. Your syllogism should go something like this:

    Lisa hates zionists.
    Michael is a zionist.
    Lisa hates Michael.

    For the record, I don’t hate you at all – but *I* couldn’t resist the temptation of a logical game.

  107. Michael

    ah, not much to worry about but theoretically it would not be legal for my name to be divulged by anyone and the fact that you asked, and that she gave you personal information about me is not good. It constitutes an attempt at intimidation.

    I’m sure Canadian intelligence has better things to do than protect my security but it would damage our hosts reputation very badly were word to get out that she may be providing locations and e-mail addresses of forum members publicly without permission.

    Especially if the information she were to give out resulted in hate mail, death threats or injury to my person.

  108. Michael

    or

    Lisa hates Zionists
    The majority of Jews are Zionists
    Lisa hates the majority of Jews
    Lisa is an Anti-Semite :)

    (And she hates Michael because he doesn’t hate Zionists too)

  109. Michael

    If you insist I follow the rules to the letter

    Lisa hates Zionists
    The majority of Jews are Zionists
    Lisa hates most Jews

    (draw your own conclusion as to what that makes Lisa)

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