It never fails to amaze me how in a country where women are only seen covered head to toe in black and get educated and work in mostly gender segregated institutes, and yet men are completely obsessed with them. The latest is a fatwa that originated in Egypt and was recently renewed by Shiekh Al Obiekan in a TV interview. He was asked if it was alright to breastfeed a grown man in order to be able to raise the segregation rule between a man and a woman and he replied with a yes! This was given major coverage in both AlWatan Newspaper and AlRiyadh Newspaper. But before I go into the details of the fatwa, some background information:
Breastfeeding is encouraged in Islam up to the age of two, after which the child has to be weaned. If a woman breastfeeds a child that is not her own, that child becomes her son by breastmilk and she and her daughters do not have to cover from him when he becomes an adult. However she has to breastfeed him before he turns two and it has to be five separate fulfilling sessions of breastfeeding. This is popular in Saudi Arabia especially among sisters because then they won’t have to worry about segregating their kids later. The cousins would be considered as “breastmilk siblings”.
It all began in May 2007 when an Egyptian Sheikh called Mohammed Atiya came out with a fatwa advising women to breastfeed their male coworkers if their job entails spending time alone together. Shiekh Atiya was quickly fired from his post at the Azhar University and the whole thing was swept under the rug. Until this week when Shiekh Al Obiekan, a royal judicial consultant at the Saudi Ministry of Justice renewed it all by replying to a question on a TV interview. He stated that in cases where a household needs an unrelated man like a driver to repeatedly visit the house, it is allowed for the woman of the household to breastfeed the stranger so he becomes a relative! The shiekh’s only condition is that the man does not drink directly from the woman’s breast but that the milk be pumped and then offered to the man in a glass. But this condition was revoked by another sheikh, Abi Ishaq Al Huwaini, who insists that the breastmilk must be sucked by the man directly from the breast!
The whole issue just shows how clueless men are. All this back and forth between sheikhs and not one bothers to ask a woman if it is logical, let alone possible to breastfeed a grown man five fulfilling breastmilk meals. As I’m writing this, I’m cringing at just the thought of it. I’m a huge advocate of breastfeeding and I’ve exclusively breastfed my three kids for at least six months each. Plus I’ve also done the “breastmilk sibling” thing for two nephews and a niece. Breastfeeding a baby is hard work and it takes a toll to be able to produce enough for a one year old, I can’t even imagine how much a thirty year old would need. Women do not produce breastmilk on demand, you have to have had a baby recently and breastfeed that baby daily or otherwise the milk will dry up within a few days. Also breastmilk is not that appetizing, it has the look and taste of skim milk, so not that many men would be able to stomach five meals of it. Moreover the thought of a huge hairy face at a woman’s breast does not evoke motherly or even brotherly feelings. It could go from the grotesque to the erotic but definitely not maternal!
218 responses to “What’s front page news in Saudi Arabia?”
I think it is the total segregation and covering of women which actually starts men’s obsession with them in the first place.
Not that not all men (except gay men) are obsessed in women in some ways.
I think our brains are just more highly developed as we don’t have this obsession with men. 😈
And how can men presume women can produce milk at will? Or is it supposed to be a ”dry” feeding???
Oooooh! tooo yukkie for words!
And thank you for that last image, while I found the concept yukkie in the extreme, you have now placed an image in my head which will give me nightmares for months! If not years! 🙄
Yes, the idea of anyone old enough to have permanent teeth in his mouth attempting to suckle human milk gives me the creeps also. Some actions are proper and healthy only for infants and not for anyone older than that.
I’ve been thinking about this, (unfortunately), maybe this fatwa was made up so men can finally have access to women and suck their breasts?
Men all over the world do seem to be totally obsessed with breasts…
One wonders they don’t get implants…
So they can have some of their own…
The male answer to penis envy???
It is apparent that the tendency in Saudi these days is to try and allow female/male integration after the new regulations set in KAUST. So, the scholars are really frustrated to try and come out with a fatwa to allow this without appearing to contradict their earlier rules of segregation. Sadly, if they just realized that this was never an issue in The Real Islam, but only a self inflicted (jahelia)cultural way of valuing women as a lesser being , with ” devilish lures”. In relation to breast feeding for “grown men” issue, there was an incident at the time of the profit Mohammad, (peace be upon him), about Salim the custodian of Huthaifa , where he was breast fed by Huthaifa’s wife when he was 15 !. Some argue that it was particular to that case only. I personally doubt that our profit would allow a practice that would be illogical, and I am not sure of the source of this “story”. Also why would we relay on an unsure issue when it is specified clearly 3 times in the Quraan that breast feeding is for babies up to 2 years.
No words can be spoken!! It’s not a technical point if there is or not milk in a breast – as we are not speaking of cows – but if it’s possible to force reality to match with the most absurd theories that a man can invent the very first moment he awakes from a restless sleep! It is already so absurd to force everyday life to sex segregation, when everything in nature is so well-mixed and armonious, but from this to force to have such a contact with the other sex to raise discrimination is totally crazy: I should give my breast to a perfect stranger so that he can suck it with all the erotical possible purpose and let him have a sexual reaction with that, while I must be covered all the rest and don’t have a coffee in a bar with an unrelated man?!? It will finish with giving another chance for men to have a sort of free sex without problems, while giving them also the possibility to create problems to those poor women, i.e. accusing them to attempt to their honest attitude making them wish to rape them… It could be the plot of a mean western porno-story
Cows don’t produce milk on command either, they also need to give birth to a calf first.
You are right, maybe they see women less than a cow… or maybe they think a woman should always be pregnant, as the only allowed activity
With all due respect to the elders in Islam and all their PROPER studies, this sounds like very perverted wishful thinking to me.
I don’t know what you ladies are fretting about really. It is US MEN you should have pity on for goodness’ sake.
Not only must we subject ourselves to the humiliation of sucking your breasts for no known nutritional value, I must add, as that value diminishes once we’ve passed the second year of our life; but have to do the thankless task five times till filled by each woman we are forced to work with – regardless of age, size and other appropriate physical attributes!
Now tell me, where is the fairness in this?
And you go on blaming illustrious, studious and Heaven-bound clerics for giving us men yet another onerous task.
After the Shikh’s fatwa, this is the most absurd thing I read in this blog.
No, Nour. You are wrong. After the Shikh’s fatwa, this is the STUPIDEST thing I read in this blog.
this person is crazy.I wish I could have whip him if he was infront.By pic he seems to be an old man,but see his thought?Old man you are crap shit headed idiot?I am sorry I am using such words for an elder but you deserve worse than this.Instead of condemning such thing you are adding injury to the insult to the women(muslim woman to be specific).I don’t know how you face your mother and sister.Shame on you!
When Halaku Khan Invaded Baghdad and slaughtered all the Sheikhs and threw all the Islamic Books in the river, the sheikh’s were debating whether the Quran is a book or Light!..
You see, it is shameful, and even sad..our clergy and sheikhs and scholars are too busy with such subjects when our problems are soo many!
Our task should be to bring back TAWHEED in thought and action in our Ummah instead of engaging people who really have no clue about Islam to begin with in such RUBBISH!. the Men/ Women segragation issue, Alcohol, Prostitution, Dating.. etc.. are NOT issues.. the Belief System of the Ummah is destroyed now. . and that should be the focus.
If there is no belief in Allah, then no soul will care for Islamic rules.. that is the bottom line. I would refrain from Haram ONLY if I Truly feared Allah, and for me to TRULY fear Him, I must first Believe in Him and submit to Him. How many people truly believe in Him or even care to fear Him?
The whole of Quran is filled with Prophets first working extensively with building beliefs extensively first and in fact in the major chunk of their time spent here, bringing social setups and boundaries MUCH later, WHEN the people had that level of belief where they would give up bad habits instantly.
This report shows one thing : We use Hadith and Quran to justify our lackings and stupidity and NOT to build belief systems.
And here is some news:
On the Day of Judgement ( could be tomorrow).. these men will HAVE to answer for this.
Chill, guys! He’s satirizing the matter – it’s so absurd, I can see why he found it hard to resist…
Now you know darn well you’d enjoy it, so don’t be lieing Mahmood!
I cant believe he even said these things… Dumb
These people are really obsessed with women!
All men are obsessed with women. Nothing wrong with that. Its abusing what you are obsessed with that is wrong.
This is absolutely disgusting and bordering on porn. It’s about what I would expect from some of these unbalanced clerics. Ha!!! They think the ‘West” is immoral!!!!!
Here is a fact Wendy, Please think of this for a moment before you reply:
All humanity today has the same religion: Self- Fulfillment. And , all humanity works for it in similer fashion. Religion is ” Way of Life”.. almost all humans now have the same way of life. The East is as perverted as the West. Today, religion is used as a means to be in power or control people – be it Christianity , Judaism, Hinduism or Islam.
I’m sorry you’ve had such bad experiences. Maybe I even have too. The difference is that I don’t care what other people in my religion think. I only care what Scripture says. And it says everyone is solely responsible for the content of their own faith. And I take that and run with it 😀
Then that religion would be our islam
Hell Ms. Eman
Its a shame that such an important judge with a very powerful and high positon would say such a thing, isn’t he suppose to know that prolactin levels are high after giving brith and then the level dropped down gradually? So that make me question how single ladies are suppose to breastfeed thei coworker when they don’t have hgih levels of prolactin!?
this is ironic!
Anyways,the milk that is preduced in women’s body is barely enough for a one year old kid. I getta say I brust out laughing when u said ” can’t even imagine how much a thirty year old would need. Women do not produce breastmilk on demand”.
I can’t picture ” a huge hairy face at a woman’s breast”!!!???
this shiakh must be a pervert!
seriously .. how can he even think of such a thing.
this is gross .. and maybe erotic for some perverts!
I don’t even believe that men would want to suck every strange woman’s breast!
this post made me laugh hard! 😀
I like your sense of humor!!
He is sure that all women, everywhere in the world.. are producing milk on a daily bases in gallons. Before him, the Egyptian Genius Milk Man, thought so too.
God knows: they probably convince their poor housemaid ( who have no choice) to breast feed them.. I am SURE!..
So what do you do when if after weaning off your co- worker he gets fired the next day?
This is so ridiculous it’s not even worth discussing and fretting over, and if this sheikh is all for it then let us see if he would allow his wife or daughters to be the first to abide by his fatwa.
We live in a world were woman are molested by their fathers brothers and uncles, so why should we expect a stranger who’s been inducted to be a relative to behave modestly around a woman whom he’s just finished sucking on her breast.
These men should be punished. I would not be as sick as them and subject the women of their homes to this humility. But, I would have them sent to a Mental Assylum for the reast of their lives.
Good to see the clerics are working hard to solve the world problems! (Here in Norway I’m mostly concerned about the world financial crisis, so I’m happy we have muslim (and christian, not to mention) clerics taking care of the really important issues)
Keep it up!
BTW: In a lot of “forgotten” tribes around the world, women walk around bare-breasted, and their societies seems to work out all right! No men in these tribes seems to care much about that. How about that?
Conclusion: All women should uncover their breasts on a daily basis, and all attention to breasts would go away. problem solved.
I don’t think I have ever read anything so absurd in my life. I am left speechless and flabbergasted at the sheer stupidity of it all. Women in this society are not supposed to work alongside men, but it’s okay if she whips out her breast and lets him suckle on five separate occasions? There’s something really wrong with the guys who dream this stuff up. They truly need to be relieved of their duties.
I am shell shocked and totally at loss of thought at hearing any thing so insane ,so horrible so disgusting.This words are small to describe the rage I have gone through at hearing a crap as big as this.
I bow my head in respect of all the muslim women.I am sorry for you that you have go through this being a woman.It is the most horrible thing I could have gone thrl feeling like hell to have heard any thing like thisough.I can’t imagine the degree of the insanity of the people who can speak up such idea.Should these be called people mentally fit?I strongly disagree.
I fill so sorry for Muslim women for bearing such an insult .It is not only an isolated case of twisting some rule but a huge insult to Islam and to all the people inside Islam.They have insulted all the people inside Islam.
I am still feeling the rage.
Relieved of their Duties??? .. would’nt that be a VERY nice punishment for them? They should be locked up….
I can imagine this guy looking at every woman he looks at as his evening Meal!
totally off topic – well almost…but you just have to watch this: http://www.mtv.com/videos/true-life-resist-the-power-saudi-arabia/1639546/playlist.jhtml
wow i didn’t realize this was already posted. my bad. 😛
Another take on this: Bahraini Akhbar Al-Khaleej.
Seems like there is a race in Saudi Sheikdom that who comes up with the most absurd and stupid statements. Why don’t they get introduced themselves with chemical castration which will help their minds think beyond sex and gender fatwas.
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Sick perverts. A shame to Islam.
I can think of a few Muslim women I’ve worked with that I’d like to suggest this idea too! Is this Fatwa valid in the US as well? By the way, what do the husbands think of this idea?
“Is this Fatwa valid in the US as well?”
In US you don’t need any fatwa. It’s all about choice!
I think if a muslim truly understands the Quran and the Life & Sayings of the Prophet PBUH, he acquires a sense of what is right and what is wrong .. in fact, his instinct and grasping power increases way beyond the normal. If that has not happened and all he has managed to do is wear a short pyajama, cap and long beared and he is running around for Fatwas.. then is just a JERK with NO power! The Science of Submission to the Will of God, ISLAM is a Favor of Allah that allows a human being to GROW from Ignorance to the HEIGHT of Wisdom , Knowledge and Power. The information and guidelines given in the Quran and by the Prophet PBUH are sufficient to lead a good , clean.. PRODUCTIVE life. What FATWA???? Idiots. It has become a bloody business to issue Fatwas right and left!
Looooool!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don’t have any words, ha ha ha.
@Usman – come on brother. A lot of Muslims in the US care to do the right thing, and seek fatwa.
Even with the Quran, they need to get a fatwa to do the right thing? What are they ? Retards?
Finally!! just the fatwa we need to make this world a better place squeezing love in every mouth, i mean every direction.
Lets give it up for these religious men and their tireless efforts to stay in touch with reality and current affairs in solving the biggest problems muslims are facing today.
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@ Riyadh Rock ‘n Roller
Video seems to not be available to Canadians. Is it on any other site?
And yet we are ridiculed for NOT following every “learned scholar”…apparently his grasp of Arabic and the fact that he has a beard is enough to make his words MEAN something. NOT!!
My breasts are strictly my own business.
I’ve been trying to formulate a response to this all day, and all I can think of to say is: Wow. Truly, words fail me.
300 hundred years from now they’ll be thinking we were the biggest idiots ever to even accept a fatwa from any of these sex-clerics! It took me a day just to get around the repugnant concept- where do they find these men- are they even sane?!
God helps- we’re in the hands of moronic perverts!
Well not really. You can just laugh at them and ignore them totally.. right?
You need not wait 300 years for that…
Edit – God help us! We’re in the hands of moronic perverts!
This is really strange. How do the Saudi men think women’s bodies work? Do they think women are like milk cows?
There are always thousands of debates going-on in KSA at anyone time. Similar to the debates on women driving, why not facilitate the resolution of laws by allowing the populace to decide which laws they wish to see instilled?
If rulers are unhappy by allowing contributions from the whole of society, then why not create an entity, such as the supreme council they have in the UAE, which would be responsible for dealing with such hot topics?
As far as I am aware, governors operate on a regional basis, why can they not institute a high degree of segregation between regional laws and national laws? Each region has its own habits, why not allow these differences to shine out, allowing people to be more expressive and as such more tolerant of what each does where he lives?
It is my belief that it is not superficial issues such as driving and sex segregation which needs to be tackled, but rather a gradual shift in leadership of the provinces based on local needs and wishes? Surely this would ensure that the development of law and equality instills itself in the most peaceful way possible for saudi nationals….
Sex segregation maybe “superficial” to you, it is NOT to me! And some of the provinces are much more extremist than mainstreams Saudi society, who will protect the women there if these people get unfettered power?
This has nothing to do with this article. I still need to read it.
I saw this video online about jeddah from MTV’s True Life and wanted to know what you thought of it.
hey By the way do u know where else i can watch this cz from where i am i just can’t in this website 😦
OMG that is disgusting! I rather never see a man again then breast feed a strange middle aged man. EWWW such bad thoughts come to mind!
BTW that would also negate the standards of hijab for both men and women.
Cows don’t produce milk on command either,
I just can;t get over it! I can’t stop imagining the situation! Of an ugly hairy man sucking my breast in order to consider him as a brother!! Then if we decide to do it ( him sucking my breast 5 times for more than an hour or more) where are going to do that in the living room bad room while we r siding down laying in bed!! I m just wondering here! Did this cheekh though about all this! oh by the way are we going to be alone or a husband a brother or an uncle is going to assist all that oh am I allowed to film this? Is there any limits to how many time i can give my breast to strangers?
Oh does a boyfriend or an ex count in all this?
Oh and if a have a pleasure during the process is that (zina) fornication?
I am not baying nasty here Again juste wondering?!
How about juste letting women drive in S-A than she doesn’t have to go trough this disgusting and unacceptable process ?
I am juste wondering again if Sahaba of the Prophet peace be Upon him were here today would they give the same kind of crazy and pervert fatwa?
not attacking anybody but wondering!!
I can’t believe it and get of it can’t stop thinking of this image of a disgusting hairy man do this to me to be able to be in the same car as him and make it okay!!
Oh did he this cheekh i mean thought about all the thoughts this car driver for instance who sucked his wife breast 5 times more then an hour each is going to think about all these good moments when he had all these pleasures while he is not home and his wife and car driver are alone there!! And all this for the seek of brotherhood! Bullshit my friends I can’t swallow this! And this crazy fatwa has nothing to do with Islam! I just pray Allah that we get better Cheyukh than that cz perverts are everywhere and we don’t what our cheyukh to be as well!!
Please and thank you……………………
He won’t be your brother but your milk-son. If he gets to be your brother, well, we have a bigger problem!
That’s true.. and that opens up another avenue, one could also have one’s mother do the breastfeeding…
That would make you siblings, and still family….
And if your mother happens to be elderly….
I would love to see the faces of the guys expecting to drink their fill from a firm, juicy, young woman’s breast, and instead they are offered to suck the old dried up 70 year old one from her mother….
Sharshura what is the video about? It won’t play in Canada.
I know it wont play in Canada!!! And what Sharshura means plz?
It’s about youth in Jeddah and how they are trying to change things in their own way.
Hahahahaahaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahhahahaaahhahaaaaaaa…………..This is without a doubt, the funniest thing Ive read in a long long time! Its disturbing, and at the same time, relieving to know that there are so many lunatics out there.
In all these years, I have never imagined that there would be a possibility of a discussion about a grown up man would some day drink human milk, To make matters worse they even discuss weather the milk should be directly from the breasts or in a glass!
Its the most grotesque news I’ve heard and you have said it well “the thought of a huge hairy face at a woman’s breast does not evoke motherly or even brotherly feelings.”
I always believe that Islam is more about one’s Niyat and Iman. Even if a Man and a Woman are in solitude together be it working or social functions or any other event, but their Iman and Niyat is true and intact, I’m sure it cannot be considered as a sin. Not sure about the Saudi men’s obsession about women.
Its high time when such people should come out of their hypocrisy.
Just another example of how some scholars aren’t fit for the title.
Islam isn’t about technicalities and loopholes. *sighs*
Bare in mind that fatwas are just personal opinions. Their word isn’t absolute.
What’s the point of having them and giving them any credence then?
It is, just like any other religion.
With two sources to this story, ie, two so called learned scholars arriving at the same conclusion, no matter how unsavory that decision is, don’t you think it’s actually something wrong with the religion in the first place which allows such interpretation?
In Real Islam.. there is NO such thing as people INCHARGE of Religion. The Ruler of the Muslim State has the responsibility of maintaining law and order, deal with social and judicial issues based on FIRST the QURAN as a whole and then the Recorded ( authenticated) Sayings and rulings of the Prophet. Unfortunately, this scholar thing has become a profession. These fat asses just sit there all day and give fatwas.. they really have no other profession as such. This itself is against Islam , to make money in the name of Religion!
i think we should await a schoalrly opinion on this mater before we condemn anyone.
also, having the breast as the main focal point of sexuality os a fairly recent phenomenon. i fear that it is this extreme sexualisation of the breast that is the real reason why women are, very sadly, unable to breastfeed their children.
Africana – You have got to be joking! You want people to wait for a scholarly opinion before we condemn anyone? Do you just not use your own brain at all, ever? Maybe you could volunteer to be the first to offer up your boob to a co-worker and let’s see how long your husband will wait for a scholarly opinion before he condemns anyone.
you are right Susie, this is just sick .
why would i be joking? i happen to really dislike the way in which most of the comments on these sorts of threads are always full of comments along the lines of, “noo waaay”.
that a person’s husband might disagree with a scholar of any real relevance, here?
people like you, susie, are probably likely to condemn the young men who protested outside al-ghamdi’s house saying, “would you let us mix with your daughters and wife, then?” and you’re using the same sort of line yourself.
I hope you are not serious. Because if you are , God help you poor woman !
Africana – I happen to see nothing wrong with gender mixing, so that’s not a good analogy to use on me. The fact that you cannot decide on your own that this “fatwa” is totally ridiculous, inappropriate, and WAAAAY beyond the proper behavior of Muslims is very frightening. Just use the brain that Allah gave you – that’s all I’m saying. You are obviously not using it if you cannot see for yourself that EVERYthing about this fatwa is WRONG.
You want to wait for a scholarly opinion on this scholarly opinion?
I am sorry.. but you are totally idiotic.
wow. i was going to post a serious response, but this is just asinine. god help saudi women indeed. i want to give credit to the ‘scholars’ though for at least making their nonsensical fatwas hilarious.
I was waiting to see your post about this disgusting issue. It seems that Fatwwa’s going always to men side.. Even in leaking. Poor us: P
Those sheikhs are great. I would be able to say such silly things only after having smoked the whole Jamaica. They seem to produce this bull$%!t effortless. Let’s admit it: they are great!! They have a future as fantasy writers after women will be able to live free.
Hey what can be said about this?Are these people crazy?It is the worst possible way to twist a rule in order to fulfill your thirst.It is not only morbid and sick idea but an insult to Islamic laws.Is the person saying these things a sane?I doubt so.Any one advocating such thing,my advice will be to let him have mental checkup.It is the most horrible thing I could have heard.
Has they sold out their logic into the craps?I don’t have the words to condemn this in the most severe manner but I can only say is that it is the worst possible insult to a muslim woman.
I am still clueless how some one can spit such thing.Huh!
whilst the breasts form part of the awrah, i think that the breast has come to be seen as a sexual organ (both in the west and in the muslim world) in a way that it perhaps wasn’t at the time of the prophet (salla allahu allehi wasalam). the breasts are a part of the body that have become excessively sexualised and that probably explains the low rates of breastfeeding in the west.
i think the outcry over this fatwa is largely down to the way we’ve been conditioned to see the female breast as a sex organ.sure, the female body is all awra and that includes the breasts but you will see that the focus varies between socieities. african-americans,for example, don’t have this obsession to the same extent as white europeans.
I’m an African American and I have NO idea what you are talking about.
Astaghfuruallah!!!! Do you read the Quran?
Do you know the ayah about women covering SPECIFICALLY talks about covering the CHEST! Either you are stupid or you think everyone else is!
just one word ***CRAP***
Its a couple days later and I am *still* trying to understand how these scholars arrived at these conclusions…
Saudi has lot more problems than categorizing breast milk relations! Imagine a new facebook category – Breast Milk Friend!
And if you ever think you could be my BMF, dream on!
I read somewhere that Aisha (ra) breastfed some men (or a man, cant remember) who then were able to freely come and go from her home as they pleased as they were now mahram to her. Have no idea how true this incident is…………
“Have no idea how true this incident is…………”
If you have no idea then why spreading a ridiculous rumor? There are already a number of false rumors about Aisha(ra)’s young age that we are trying to counter. You go add another one..
I agree with Usman!
we have enough rumors already!!!
I asked to find out if anyone else had heard of this too, in order to quash it. No need to be so touchy.
But I did come across this:
“A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (puberty) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared. Book 008, Number 3425:”
But on the other hand kinship through breastfeeding can only occur if done within the first 2 years of life, so I have no idea how the above can be true.
Any students of the deen know what the above hadith is referring to? (or if its fabricated altogether because there are several of them in that case)
Absolute BS and NONSENSE~!
I trust and understand the ladies/sisters concern and how they feel about the whole issue. But please do look at the source of the Hadith in subject. it is from Sahih Muslim (anbody can check and verify the this by visiting a library or online). So its not right to call all of it “non-sense”, “b..sh..it” etc. etc.
We do however need to understand , in consultation with the true scholars of Islam, about how these ahadith are to be interpreted. Because I did read(in the same chapter of Sahih Muslim) that even at that time some the wives of the Propht(SAW) were of the view that this permission applied to a particular case (of Salim). And that breast-feeding is limited to 2 years of age.
and Allah knows the best !!
“Moreover the thought of a huge hairy face at a woman’s breast does not evoke motherly or even brotherly feelings.” I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit!
to susie et al,
saying that i’d be interested in a scholarly opinion is not outlandish. presumably, this scholar is basing his opinion on something that he’s come across within the hadith literature and so the counter argument should be based on the same sources. a well researched counter argument might also lead to a modification of the original opinion.
this doesn’t mean we can’t do our own research but i suspect that most people are basing their condemnation on very little. i do think that it’s a little intellectually bankrupt to just dismiss something because we don’t like the sound of it.
To Africana –
WRONG! It’s really funny for YOU to talk about others as being “intellectually bankrupt!” If you cannot figure out instantly and on your own that what these “religious scholars” said is totally against the whole reason for women guarding their arwa, there is no hope for you. Enough from you already.
Why don’t you conduct a deep study and research on this Fatwa Africana and let us fools know?
and also i have noticed that (in some cases)blind following of opinions is just fine when that opinion is in line with modern western feminism or some other -ism.
I’m dumb- please site one fatwa that was in line with “modern western feminism or some other -ism.”?
You see Africana, you are now making this a Islam VS West debate.. I bet you are a real hardcore religious fanatic..
P U K E !!!!
All fatwas, opinions and wishes that do not confirm with misogynist male thinking is by default ”modern western feminism”.
Surely you knew that? 😉
The other blatantly apparent issue is that unless you’ve had a child within that first few days maybe week- you are not going to be lactating! Simple- no baby born, no mammary glands function, hence no milk!
This ‘opinion’ is based on alien anatomy! Aisha never had a child, am I correct? Then how could someone say she breastfed someone?! It goes against the laws of nature- humans don’t lactate because we are fishing for a job and angling for brotherly workforce. If breast milk were that abundant, someone would have marketed it by now- since I don’t see any on the supermarket shelf the ‘scholars’ are going to have to eat this one raw.
Not only is this absurd and appalling but out right disgusting ! Maybe the women of his household will not object to this but most of us do.
This shows clearly not everyone is fit to issue a fatwa, its a great responsibility for which they are answerable to Allah(swt).
there is a hadith (which may be the one that this scholar relied on) which talks about a young male servant drinking the milk of a woman in whose house he worked in order to overcome the mahram issue. it should be noted that the servant did not suckle milk from her breast directly. i’ve copied and pasted it below.
most scholars as well as the prophets’ wives (with the exception of Aisha) are/were of the view that this was a concession given only to this servant and was/is not to be taken as a general principle.
`A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah’s Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and said, “Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhayfah [her husband] (signs of disgust) on the entrance of Salim (who is a servant) into (our house).” Whereupon Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Breast-feed him.” She said, “How can I breast-feed him, as he is an adult man?” Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) smiled and said, “I already know that he is a young man.”
do we actually know that sheikh al-obiekan didn’t mean expressed milk? the words of scholars have been deliberately mistranslated, by the likes of memri tv, in order to ridicule muslims.
No I don’t think so, I think they consider every breast worth sucking, wether there is an ”evening meal” provided or not.
“Also, it should be noted that `A’ishah did not breast-feed any grown men, nor did she give any of her milk to anyone, nor did any of the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). The hadith states, “She took that as a precedent for whatever men she wanted to be able to come to see her. She ordered her sister, Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr and the daughters of her brother to apply the same ruling.”
It is clear from the above-mentioned statement that she did not give her milk to anyone and it should be noted that she had no children [and, therefore, had no milk]. ”
I cannot find the right words to describe this ludicrous and laughable fatwa.
You are going all over the place, first it was decline of breastfeeding in the West which has nothing to do with breastfeeding strange men, then when we refuse this absurd fatwa you refer to us as followers of “modern western feminism”. Is refusing to display your breasts to breastfeed strangers a “modern western feminism”? How did we get to blaming the West for this?
Take Susie’s advice and use the brain Allah blessed you with.
I am só a modern western feminist! I refuse to bear my breasts and have them sucked by any man!
And anybody who ”advises” me to do so will get one socked!
But this fatwa does give one a whole different view of Islamic ”Modesty”.
Oh well, what’s in a breast…
I suppose if your face is still covered ”modesty” is secured…
aafke, in my first comment i was saying that, if you’re honest with yourselves, your swift condemnation of this sheikh’s fatwa is because of your own anxiety about breasts. the sheikh is, presumably, relying on hadith incidents that occured at a time when the breast was not as sexualised as it is now. if you look into it, you will not find this same horror and anxiety of breasts amongst some of the more traditional tribes who will openly breast feed their children whilst covering their faces with some sort of mask. didn’t hamza yusuf mention (in the end of times lecture) that there were bare chested slave girls walking around mecca?
Oh I agree, it seems clear that in the time of the prophet no women veiled, except Elite Jewish women. As only upperclass Jewish women veiled,it was actually forbidden for lowerclass and slave women to veil.
And it seems it was the norm that women went barebreasted, or had ancient egyptian style dresses which left the breasts bare.
When Mohammed wanted to regulate modest dress for women he wrote that women had to cover their breasts, So yes, in that far away time, it was no big deal showing your breasts. Although I bet having some old bearded bloke sucking them would have been a matter of concern. Even for slave girls who had no say in the matter if their owner wanted to sexually abuse them.
But it is a big deal now. We are used to cover our overt sexual defining details. Even in the ”wicked west”.
I would like to see you bare your breasts and have some bald bearded old stranger sucking them and see how much you like it.
…bare chested slave girls walking around mecca at the time of the prophet? if true, then that gives some ideas about that breasts were not in a special category as they are now. for example, women in western societies wear bikinis which reveal all of their body save for the chest and below areas suggesting that the breast has a particular importance in defining female sexuality and it’s this special status that is the source of the anxiety.
and lastly, even if the milk were drunk directly from the breast it is possible to take milk without touching the breast. when milk is expressed from the breast, the jets of milk do travel a considerable distance and at very fast speed. also, it’s perfecty posible to breast feed without revealing any part of the breast since the milk exits via tiny holes in the nipples.
Africana – Do you really mean the “and lastly” part? I can’t speak for everyone here, but I certainly hope you mean that.
Why the futile attempts at defending the indefensible?
Isn’t it simply better to accept that this ruling, regardless as to where it comes from and the conditions which gave it credence are wrong?
Once accepted, we can actually move forward to much more important things rather than busy ourselves with infantile and totally useless hypotheses.
Thank you for this fascinating image….
I would love to hear from a mother how they do that…
You put your baby in a corner and then when it opens it’s mouth you ”squirt”???
I could see this as an Olympic sport!
And as Saudi women by that time will have mastered the art of ”Milk-squirting” to perfection, having so much opportunity to practice in the workplace there will be a lot of gold medals going the Saudi way….
I suggest three categories, the single squirt over three meters, the double highspeed squirt over three meters, and the marathon with target squirting.
i am posting the follwing information mainly because of some people’s comments about pregnancy being necessary for breast feeding. there is something called induced lactation which is used by some women wishing to breast feed an adopted child.
it is different to being a wet nurse in that it can be used in women who have never been pregnant. it does take a number of months to induce the flow of milk (achieved by the use of a feeding tube and sometimes herbs and medications) but it is possible. even women who have had hysterectomy have reported successfully inducing lactation.
“Lactation without pregnancy, Induced lactation, Relactation
Milk production can be “artificially” and intentionally obtained in the absence of pregnancy in the woman. It is not necessary that the woman has ever been pregnant, and she can be well in her post-menopausal period. Women who have never been pregnant are sometimes able to induce enough lactation to breastfeed. This is called “induced lactation”. Women who have breastfed before can re-start. This is called “relactation”. This is how some adoptive mothers, usually beginning with a supplemental nursing system or some other form of supplementation, can breastfeed. There is thought to be little or no difference in milk composition whether lactation is artificially induced or a result of pregnancy.
Lactation can be induced by physical stimulation and by drugs. In principle—with considerable patience and perseverance—it is possible to induce lactation by sucking on the nipples alone. The nipples may need to be consistently stimulated by a breast pump or actual suckling (several times a day), and the breasts massaged and squeezed (“milked”) to encourage flow of any milk. Temporary use of galactagogue (milk-inducing) drugs is also effective; galactagogue herbs may also be of use. Once established, lactation responds to demand…..”
i don’t think there’s much left to say on this matter.
Glad you finally agree that this ruling, even it’s notion and the condition it’s supposed to alleviate, is ludicrous.
Oh, I don’t agree, the whole subject gets more and more fascinating. It also poses some problems; the Olympic committee will have to work out which herbs and drugs will be allowed to induce the sports women to lactate. And imagine the possible chances for deception! Athletes are already under pressure from the bad press concerning doping.
I can already see the headlines:
*Female athlete and golden medal winner in the Olympic highspeed marathon squirting, has been found to be guilty of taking drugs which increased the milkflow and breast-pressure. the doctors were made suspicious by the unusually hard pressured G-cups of the female athlete. Even when in repose a occasional squirt would be released, an investigation proved she had taken prohibited drugs which increased the pressure on her breasts to such a high level that personal injuries could have been effected, not only the athlete herself, but als spectators would have been at risk.
The world champion high speed lactation squirter had to return her medal, and her amazing speedsquirting record has been invalidated.
LOOOOOL!!!!>.. have some mercy on this man.loool.
It is his ruling.. and before him the Egyptian dude.. it is not the law. It can never be, it will never be.
And what is most ridiculous about all of this is Saudi’s stupid, stupid law of male/female segregation!!!! Furthermore, segregation is certainly not practiced among the royals. Just watched a video of a few days in the life of Prince Waleed which clearly shows him at work in his office with female staff with no head coverings, wearing pants and low cut blouses, etc. etc…….
Prince Waleed doesn’t employee any woman who wears Hijab. It’s a requirement he’s not ashamed of talking publicly about.Off course no religious police officers will ever consider showing on His Highness’s office.
And good for him!!!
who’d want to work for him anyway?
It is a matter of choice.
Here is an AYAH ( VERSE) from the Quran from Surat Al Baqara:
LA IKRAHA FIDDEEN.
This means: there is NO compulsion in religion. The verse goes on to say: Wisdom and Evil have clearly been defined.
So, Allah Himself , has left it upto the person to choose their path, which includes everything.
What SHOULD be countered however is criminal activity or anything that could start it.
Honestly, I have not seen the Vice/Virtue men chasing women to cover their faces for a long long time.
I myself was sitting in my car on Tahlia when it was prayer time ( i had prayed at home and was going to tell this to the Vice guys driving around there if they were to hassle me) and the GMC came.. he shouted something… i opened to window to talk.. he said..” Pray ya akhi” and he left.
Now, 20 years ago, he would have jumped out of the car. .pulled me out.. possibly shaved my head and kept me in the mosque until fajir the next day. But.. you see.. all that does not happen now. Maybe in remote villages or some other areas.. but not Riyadh.
Is it just me or the world has gone insane. It makes one wonder where civilization stands when real news can be passed off as satire.
This is just insane! I am embarrassed to even read it.
Sister, if you are Muslim please don’t embarrass your fellow Muslimahs. I can’t believe how you are supporting this ridiculous “fatwa” with your very apparent insufficient and faulty knowledge of everything from Physics to Islam.
Women’s breasts have always been sexualized and were definitely sexualized in the Prophet’s (pbuh) time. There are many ahadeeth that come to mind like him fondling his wives’ bare upper bodies when they were menstruating and especially the following hadith:
“A houri is a most beautiful young woman with a transparent body. The marrow of her bones is visible like the interior lines of pearls and rubies… A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle. Houris dwell in palaces of splendid surroundings.” (Sunan Tirmidhi, Vol II).
It may be a weak hadith, waAllahu Alam, but the point is even in the time of Tirmidhi breasts were part of a woman’s sexual charisma as the second last sentence clearly shows.
I hope you will stop with your blind support of people who actually may be sinning by spewing such fatwas. You are clearly shocking, humiliating and upsetting all the women and even the men on this forum.
So we should all understand if Africana has to work in a Company or a Hospital she is ready to squirt milk into the mouths of her male co- workers.
Lets say there are 100(to say the least)male co-workers & she has to give 5 full feeds which equals to 500 X of squeezing her breast to squirt milk into the mouths of men of all sizes,shapes & intentions.
Good luck hope you get time to do some work too.
assalamu alaikum… this ruling would, if proven to be a valid one, be very limited in its application because of the way in which the hadith shows it being used to overcome the mahrahm isue where that person is a permanent feature of your life.
ummhassan, the ruling is based on an actual event recorded in the hadith literature. take, for instance, hijama or blood letting (by means of cups). even though i know this to have many health benefits in the absence of a person skilled in this procedure, i won’t do it. i do not problematise and condemn the act of blood letting rather i accept that the environment in which i live is at fault.
basically, as i see it condemning the part of the fatwa that talks of breastdeeding a man in order to overcome the mahrahm issue is tantamount to a condemnation ofthe prophet (sallaa Allahu Allaehi wa salam). what we can question is whether the incident involving salim was a concession to salim only or whether it has a wider application (which many scholars it hasn’t)
And here’s the rub. Because we claim that Islam is perfect, it therefore cannot be improved, but if we suddenly find that there might be something in it that doesn’t make sense then we have to admit to its fallibility which leads to the shattering of the perfection principle. It is this particular thing which must be addressed and it is this issue which should keep our clerics and theologians awake to come to terms with this fact, rather than facetious incomprehensible “issues” like adult breastfeeding.
You know, in virtually all contracts I’ve seen, there is a single and most important paragraph without which no current legal agreement would be entertained, it says:
Maybe this should be a consideration.
Let try to understand where you are coming from- you want us to understand the ‘logic’ for such a ruling? Well, the thing I don’t understand is the part of a person’s sensitivities to what this ‘logical’ pronouncement/opinion implies should be suspended. We are humans, not robots, and as social animals we interact with each other at different levels. Most of the world interacts without resorting to these ‘logical’ rulings, because instinctively we know what is proper at different levels.
The problem as I see it, is that there is a group that believes we don’t have feelings and want to use or even fabricate situations of a bygone era and use the Prophet SAW as our wiping stick, so we will conform to their convoluted reasoning. Instead of researching within the annals of Islamic literature for the models that conform to our basic human tendencies, they are proposing situations that contradict who we are as people.
A woman, any woman, who has breastfed will tell you it is an intimate activity that creates a bond between her and the child she is breastfeeding. To take this very personal, private, and maternal event and turn it into a public spectacle that goes beyond the boundaries for which breast milk’s purpose was naturally intended, is truly inhumane and sadistic. It brings in the realm of sadism into a woman’s natural world, corrupting it and de-basing it and by extension de-basing all men as well.
Bottom line this evil. Its Haraam and goes against the laws of nature.
Inal, very good comment.
Of course if you want to follow in the footsteps of the prophet this whole discussion is moot anyway.
It is clear that in the time of the prophet there was no total sex-segregation as is practised in KSA. Women and men did lots of things together, including praying at the mosque and attending lectures by Mohammed etc.
So from a sunni aspect there should be no segregation of the sexes. So the problem of how to breastfeed creepy old men shouldn’t exist.
I have read the post and a dozen comments here..in explicit nuances about breasts.
and now I hav a HARD ON.
Islamic culture it seems..is progressing at a faster pace and given decadent west.. a run for its decadent money..ha ha
Hopefully these breast-free-for-all law reaches India where I’m living..Totally awesome..
If you don’t have anything useful to contribute to a sensitive discussion that is clearly tearing through a large section of human society, then SHUT UP!
And why are you, after proving yourself an insensitive ass with his foot in his mouth, going on to proclaim your place of residence/nationality!
Do you realize the impression you just gave a lot of intelligent people about your country and its people. What a shame you are to India.
If you want to read this discussion, then go ahead, but KEEP QUIET. And let these people express themselves and sort out issues (some of which may soon be at your doorstep). If you really want to comment on important issues, especially the ones in our country, I suggest you go look up Naxal violence, the injustice in Bhopal and the Manipur blockade…
And for heaven’s sake, don’t make fun of stuff THERE!
This guy JAY ,is an ass. He will not contribute anything to any forum.
A little boy.
You this is all funny and stuff, but assuming they want to push for this fatwa, what they could do is have the women drink from the unrelated mother’s bosom (5 times and all). That would make the woman & unrelated male co-worker milk-siblings, without getting said male’s face in the female co-workers breast.
Am I brilliant or what? :p
Oh my God. Is this fatwa even real?
I am a man and I find this disgusting. We aren’t all sex-crazed beasts wanting to fondle the breasts of every woman we see. As a non-Muslim, I sometimes think making women cover-up in the way Muslim men do makes the obsession with the female form stronger. I live in England where women may dress as they please the vast majority of men here accept the fact that this is not an invitation to sexual approach. Only muslim men by-and-large still seem to have a mental block regarding this rule, and as a result the vast majority of rapes and sexual assualts are carried out by men of that background. This is simple fact borne out by crime stats.
I dont know which stats you are referring to Vincent but the highest rate of rapes & crimes occur in USA & not Muslim societies where its is required by women to dress modestly. This Fatwa is one mans fancy which has no basis in Islam.
Complete segregation can be the cause of obsession of women & vice versa but not dressing modestly.
As far as crimes against women are concerned they occur in the most modern and free countries that to very frequently. Please dont mix issues.
“Dressing modestly” doesn’t necessarily mean “beeing covered from hair to toes”. Dressing is sometimes a way to communicate following the taste, the ideas or simply the mood of the day. And we all know that whatever is forbitten – from chocolate to a child or smoking in a restaurant – creates the need to have that thing!!! This is the link with the obsession of men AGAINST veiled women, and I don’t think you may say “vice versa” The segregation of sexes and, more generally, the way of deeply ruling others lives , begins from dressing an unifom, and let not the people think alone about how to grow up and how to cope with everyday life, including interaction with others, men and women. All the world is built of male and female parts, and everyone should be given the chance to find out the way it works. If it’s true that crimes against women occur in the most modern and free countries very frequently, it’s even more true that while in the rest of the world abused women are protected by the law, and guilty men have to pay – more or less, depending of the place-, in KSA it works on the contrary, just to witness the the real matter is to dominate the female part of that country at all favour of men.
Sameera, there are a lot of rapes in the USA and other non-MENA countries are committed by men who originated in countries where women and men are segregated and have women under wraps. Muslim men all over the world commit rapes just as other men do and they also commit rapes in KSA and other mainly Islamic countries.
When we talk about rapes in the west, we talk with numbers the government provides or statistics generated there, not by ksa or any muslim country. What are you basing your statement on? Assumption? Or numbers backed by a reliable source? I would think assumption and that’s why what you say is Your assumption or opinion based on a perception you adopted from a media source that propagates negative images of this region ( god knows why).
I can tell you from experience that ksa is a million times safer for women then the usa. I would say the same for Mediterranean. Countries like cyprus. Where they teach you in their history lessons that peaceful and crime free societies with rights of women were created by caliphs.
Never mind the ignorance of some muslims and their actions, islam itself gives a perfect solution which all countries are not implementing.
Finally, any crime committed by anyone anywhere cannot be associated to any religion. It is crime committed by a human in their weakness and they must pay for it. If islam segregates ( which it really does not soo much) then it makes marriages easy. Men here are Not deprived of sex as much as you would like to believe.
Also, you will agree that 90% of porn and publications that corrupt minds and cause people to commit sexual crimes ( to a great extent) are from the west. Just watch real tv and dr.phil – not making this up. Some of the videos produced in the west make this fatwa look like baby stuff.
In ksa, you will not find proven rapists walking around on parole. They are dead. Not even kept in prison to get out later and do it again. Murderers and rapists don’t walk around freely here.
Unfortunately, in close societies rape is severely underreported. Also patriarchal closed societies do not leave any options for escape from rapes that occur within the family by husbands, fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins, father-in-laws etc. In America, when in the 50s and 60s, they began questioning patriarchy, they realized that for many women the “men know best” culture at home made them vulnerable to abuse by perverted family members. Whenever one section of society is given too much power, there are people who use it to get away with the worst abuses. When Saudi society opens up, these problems will come out just as they have come out in all other countries that became open. But in the meantime, dont pretend everything is okay just because it is not visible. A lot that happens to women in traditional societies goes unreported.
Well put Riyadh Writer. I think people need to be reminded that while throwing stones at others they shouldnt forget their own houses are made of fragile glass as well. Every society has positive & negative sides but to take the negative and paint the whole society as black is nothing but to look at things with only one eye & closing the other on purpose.
Exactly! It seems like these ppl have got a chance to malign Islam rather than support Saudi Woman’s just cause of a fight for the rights given to women in Islam taken away by men far off from the true Islam.
I think those who have hinted very clearly that Muslim men are mostly rapists because their women are all covered up (Ha what a joke!) shld act more responsibly before making such absurd suggestions. If we were to sit and list the negative sides of the Western society or should I say Christian society the list will be much much longer. So like some one said dont mix issues & use this platform as a means to further your negative propaganda against Islam. I’m a Saudi woman who knows well when genuine support is being given for our cause and when under the garb of fake sympathy cheap shots at Islam are being taken.
Oh come ON!..
What do you mean this society oppresses women? That is RIDICULOUS! And it is getting way out of hand.
I agree that some systems and some procedures are out dated and all men and women suffer because of them.
BUT! After having lived for ten years in Cyprus, and visiting almost all countries.. my bottomline is : WOMEN enjoy more privileges here than ANYWHERE on Earth!…
I am sorry.. but that is the truth. They live in LUXURY you cannot possibly imagine elsewhere.
And, what you are doing is taking a handful of abuse cases and making a BIG DEAL out of it. If we have 100 rapes here , the west has 1000.. THAT is the correct ratio. The only women TRULY complaining here are MOSTLY expat women who will not leave the luxury but want the country to change for them.
Saudi women who want changes here should take it up with their government. Foriegn women who want changes here, should simply go back home to freedom. And that is FAIR.
Even MEN face restrictions. When I felt that KSA was restricting me , I LEFT. When I felt that environments are better, I returned. WHO am I, and WHAT right do I have to constantly criticize the practices approved by the Ruling Family of this country? They fought the battles, won the land, united it.. and made sure its people live in peace and get ample opportunity – why do you want to go out of your way to insult them?? WHAT gives ANYONE this right?
Fix your HOME first then venture into other lands is the FAIR approach. And believe me, if each one of us started fixing our own lands, our lives will end doing it – we will have NO time for other countries.
Women want to be equal to men, but want to be treated like women.. how absurd??? You want to be equal to me, do what I do. Simple.
Please do not tell me that western societies are “IDEAL” .. they are not. In fact, NO society on earth is YET ideal. Humans are evolving and they will continue to .. or continue to degenerate.
YOU , as a person MUST be fair in judgement. It is good to vent and let out emotions generated from a previous experience on an even occuring now, but it is not “intelligent”.
Assumptions, opinions and wishful thinking.. That is all this is.
That lady who wanted to burn her veil on the highway was a FOOL. No one in Riyadh will kill her for not veiling her face. IF she wants to walk around in a Bikini, however, it is not possible because our Religion does not allow it. And, we will NOT compromise on our religion for ANYONE.
Agreed, this shaikh has come out with an outrageous fatwa.. and the other Shaikh that went to Kuwait.. BUT.. did you hear the KING making their fatwas the RULE? They were totally ignored and laughed at. This Shaikh OR any other Shaikh of the world are NOT the representatives of Islam. Islam’s representation is done by the Quran and Authentic Hadith and life of the Prophet PBUH. Find fault with that if you please , we have people who will counter it and satisfy you. BUT, do not use the mistakes of some men to judge a religion and societies that at LEAST try to follow it.
Everyone hates the Mutawwa. I say.. BRING THEM BACK!.. Ever since they have been reduced, people have gone NUTS. Bring them back and train the ones lacking good communication skills in them. Punish those who commit crimes.. but we MUST have an authority that controls crimes. The police need all the help they can get. Nothing wrong with the officers of Virtue and Vice.. Like any other law enforcement agency, they also need to do it RIGHT. That is ALL what the problem was and it HAS been fixed to a great extent. We SEE it.
We do not need anyone to come here and tell us what is wrong. We all see mistakes and fix them. Please do not disagree. I live right here in the capital and I see amazing growth in people and law enforcers over the past ten years. I mean it, AMAZING. Give credit where credit is due. Stop this mudslinging. It is really not necessary.
Are you a man with free will or are you a slave? What do you mean, “who”
are you to criticize the ruling family? even though, you said, “I”, I get the feeling that you are outraged at the idea of a woman challenging societal norms. Well, it is HER country. She is a equal citizen whether you accept it or not. I want to do hajj but I dont want to visit a country where I am treated like a piece of property and I dont want a male escort with me when I perform the Hajj. Unfortunately, it seems I will never be able to go to Hajj… because the only way for me to do it is on KSA’s terms and those terms dont make any sense to me and those terms are downright disrespectful to me
Whatever. I’m saying that rapes are committed by all types of men including Muslims. So … shall we talk about rape being used as a weapon of war in Islamic countries? Please don’t live under the illusion that Muslim men are pure and don’t commit rape, incest, etc. etc. because it happens and it happens in KSA as well and more often than not the rapist goes free because most females don’t report it for very obvious reasons.
Again.. an ASSUMPTION. You have assumed that it is not reported. Maybe it does not really happen that often and that is why it is not reported? Many Maybe’s here.
All I am saying is this:
I love what Saudiwoman is doing here. She is being realistic.. and HONEST and clear. Fine. Great.
BUT, what people are doing here is : MAKING KSA LOOK LIKE A HELLHOLE!.. I am sure that is not the objective here. When you start comparing West and KSA. .. it is a whole new thing. That is when we start talking facts and figures. Otherwise, it is just mudslinging and that is what is negative. Now, on this blog.. this lady has put PICTURES of Clerics who have GOOFED up and this is to show that these men SHOULD not be influencing society so much anymore.. while some SHOULD be like Shaikh Al Ghamdi. So, my question is: Why try and use this blog as a place where you can just come , insult the Kingdom and go away. Don’t. If you have facts and figures about crime rates here, cases reported.. general documented proofs.. present them and let us compare them with other countries. I promise you, it will be proven that this is a MUCH more peaceful place. The issues here are different. Cultural Norms that are stopping people from progressing resulting in social and work problems. Since the population IS growing and it will grow.. changes HAVE to be made otherwise there will be a great deal of frustrations and more issues. Some of them being the one’s pointed out in this blog.
The general population of KSA DOES want to grow out of norms that no longer make any sense and live more freely WITHOUT violating Islamic tenants. The Debate whether Men and Women can mingle or not ends with this: When Muslims go for Hajj and Umrah.. there is NO segregation. When Muslims do Tawaf around the Kabah, there is no segregation. What women wear in Ahram, is in fact, the Lawful covering of Islam. So, why come up with other stuff? It is for what purpose they mingle that should be questioned.
So, that is what the concerns are here. Different views and talks .. in all of this.. no one should insult this country or any country.. makes no sense.
KSA is not perfect. Statistics do not come out about rape and domestic violence in KSA as they do in North America and Europe. That is not a secret. When I read some of the reactions here it reminds me of a little quote “the lady doeth protest too much”. What that means is that if there’s nothing to hide or be ashamed of ‘the lady’ won’t have to try and make it sound so great. ALL countries, areas, have their problems. KSA is no different.
Finally sense dawns on Wendy & she admits that ‘ ALL countries, areas, have their problems. KSA is no different’.
A suggestion dont overload your lill mind trying to understand an area you probably havent even been to in your dreams.
whatever…the shaikh based this fatwa from what he thought was correct…anyway im not here to voice my opinion or whatever, just want to remind my fellow muslim/muslimahs to be careful on what we say as the flesh of the scholars are indeed poisonous.
Also, i stumbled across this blog not to long ago and quite frankly im disgusted at some of the things posted here.
Oh and just a note for wendy, islaam is perfect but muslims ARE NOT, you either follow the path that Allaah has made clear for us or not…ur choice..
It’s a good reminder. Jazak Allah khair Al Britaaniyah. When I first read the Fatwa, I was like they’ve got to be kidding, but I looked up info and found that the sheikh based his fatwa on a hadith.
Whether people accept this hadith or reject it, it’s for them, but attacking the sheikh without checking first where he got his fatwa is not right. We’re responsible and judged for everything we utter.
Do you know what a BIG DEAL it is to give a fatwa?
Was the Hadith quoted? Was the bases of this fatwa disclosed?
Our clerics are making a mockery of Islam around the world and we should shut and think??
The hadith was not quoted by people who quoted the sheikh’s words. On the sheikh’s website, the hadith is there and so is its explanation. What the sheikh said regarding the issue, it is allowed in a certain case and applied to certain people . It’s also explained how this is done.
I didn’t say shut up and accept everything a sheikh says. All I was saying is why speak against something we have no knowledge of? Why insult a Muslim sheikh based on what we get from secondary sources rather than checking primary sources?
You may check this link to read the fatwa
Wendy has always said that rape happens all over the world. Some just don’t read the comments but that’s not important.
@ Iqra. I have been to Saudi. I have Saudi relatives there and am very familiar with the how life is in KSA so don’t assume people know nothing.
wa iyyak @Almaha.. na’am, people should first find out what the shaikh based this fatwa on, i mean come on he must have supporte it with hadith..therefore i wanted to warn firstly, myself and then others that we should not run our mouths and keep silent until we gain knowledge on any matter. Even if you think logically something is not write, practicing islaam religion is based on Qur’aan and Sunnah !
Discussions started when non-muslims started talking about Islam negatively. Our clerics cause this. Most of us are here defending Islam and this country. And, all discussion, including this blog are about finding faults within us and fixing them.
i call such mufteen / Shiekh : “Emasculated Shiekh” “شيوخ مخصيين” this is mainly because they speak loud only when the topic raised is about women.
on the other hand when there is a catastrophe raging in the Muslim world, you simply hear nothing from them, they vanish…..in thin air.
i have never seen any one of them speaking about the cases of corruption in the country.
sad… but true
So that means that whosoever gets employed as a nurse, has to bloody breastfeed the patient! And all the women who fought alongside the males in all the Gazwas, used to breast feed the whole army of muslim men first! Wow!
The bliss of falling ill…
Off topic–THE HOLY SINNER, Please send me an email to chezchiara2 AT yahoo DOT com. Thanks! 🙂
As long as we have sensible people like Karan in all religions & countries there is still hope for humanity & jerks like Jay whose only aim is to spread ill feelings among different countries & religions will soon be flushed out into nothingness.
@ Wendy well sorry your saudi relatives are so bad that you’ve drawn such a negative image of Saudis & Islam.
As long as we have sensible people like Karan in all religions & countries there is still hope for humanity & jerks like Jay whose only aim is to spread ill feelings and ridicule others will soon be flushed out into nothingness.
@ Wendy well sorry your saudi relatives are so bad that you’ve drawn such a negative image of Saudis & Islam.
To all those supporting this Shiekh:
A one time incident under unknown circumstances cannot be turned into a full fledged Fatwa for one & all that too for all times.
My relatives and friends in KSA are absolutely wonderful!!! I love them to death and wish we could live closer together.
Come live in KSA:D
Would love to if the segregation and clothing restrictions were lifted. 🙂
What do you propose should happen?
All ye men and women.. mingle though and walk thee naaaakid to the mall?
GIRLS UNITE AND FIGHT!
Man.. whats wrong with you? If girls unite and fight, you won’t be Marc.. you will be Margarita.. maybe you already are?:P
This is definitely hard to explain!
If you have more examples of cultural peculiarities that we Arabs find normal but, when asked, find really hard to explain, please share them on my new FB page. http://www.facebook.com/WhoCanExplain.
I’m trying to collect all of the Arab world’s little idiosyncrasies. The funny, the strange, the frustrating!
I simply can’t believe what I am reading! This is ludicrous!
Your country’s clerics have gone mad literally.
This is proof enough that despite all your enormous oil wealth, high living standards, shining cars, you people in Saudi Arabia are still in the middle ages.
I thank god that I was born, raised in a country that has a fundamentally democratic constitutional structure. Although my country is a a poor developing country annd has had to suffer from intermittent stints of military rule, yet we are in essence still a democratic society, where logic and reason prevails. We are a free people!
Your Saudi clerics who issued this ‘fatwa’ should be sent straight away to a mental assylum!
These mad creatures are bringing a bad name to our holy religion.
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Take a look at this video, “a muslim girl hides her hijab live !” : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAMx5yomJXg
Never seen anything so stupid in my life before.
Lol. Face does not need to be covered in Islam. Don’t know on what bases people insist on it?
HEY EVERYONE! GREAT FOLLOW UP ON THIS STORY! I HAVE COPIED THE ITEM to my blog:
KSA: Latest on Women Driving
I quote from a news item in the LA TIMES world news:
“SAUDI ARABIA: Women threaten to breastfeed drivers if they aren’t allowed to drive
June 22, 2010 | 8:24 am
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LOL funny how the once a upon a time barbarians who took pleasure in killing,raping,plundering, not to mention going on without a bath for weeks have now become ‘oh so civilised’ as to consider others as barbaric. Just reread the History of your Nations the barbaric behaviour you will find there will make such incidents in other societies a childs play. But then again such things should have been expected from shiploads of criminals who were banished to lands which are now the ‘self proclaimed’ epitome of civility.
Have you ever stopped to think that people might give too hoots about what you think or dont think well if not try now it might dawn on you that no Nation no religion no society is without a decline. And when you guys were plunged into the Dark Ages the otherside of the World was at the peak of civility building foundations in every field of life and which you now have adapted and bounce on to reach newer heights.
What barbarism still goes on by the Western Nations under the garb of civility can be seen world over so my advice to you is cut the crap honey !
As salam u alaikum to all.
After reading this article I am utterly dis-appointed and I feel ashamed, so much that I had to close it in disgust. The problem is that we, Muslims, have so many black sheeps in our community that every now and then some xyz maniac comes along and tear the teachings of the Holy religion to pieces. This is one of the best examples of using religion to fulfill dirty desires. I strongly believe that this issue must be raised to the very limit and this rubbish person must be punished according to Sharia. Sister(who had the courage to share this article), I strongly believe that Islam needs such people who can at least raise voice against stupid oppressors, particularly those treating women as toys for own pleasure. My request to all is that whoever is able to raise this issue on a major scale, plz step up and do it, because if we don’t, who knows someday some other Mr. Xyz would come along and declare something extra foolish and destroy the teachings of Islam. Jazak-Allah Khair !
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This cannot be for real? yeuchhh
its utterly absurd ..how can they order woman to such a disrespectful act………………
a woman is the most compassionate thing on this earth..i learnt it by seeing my mother………..
its just a thing like…”donkey having a ride on man”….
this a thing which demonstrates that top clerics in the world can touch the lowest levels of human ignorance……….
i dont understand how a grown man can become someone’s “son” by drinking their milk. Also, does it automatically guarantee that he will have no sexual feelings for that woman after the fifth feeding? What is it, Magic Breast Milk?
And, if he does become her “son”, isnt this incest?
And if the woman isnt producing milk, what’s he supposed to do, suck her breasts? If sucking her breasts five times makes him her “son”, then what about her husband? Is he now her husband-cum-“son”?
Truly mind boggling.
Though, hats off to the cleric for actually having the guts to openly say something as immoral, senseless, disgusting, disrespectful and downright stupid as this. 😀
Lol thats so true…if a husband were to do it…that would mean he becomes her son, so they cant be married…There must be lots of women sleeping with their husband/sons. Istaqfurulah May Allah foegive us..this is just sad and this could be the reason why muslims are looked down on….May allah show us the way.
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seriously, why and how he came up such a nasty shamefull thought? this guy need hs head examined. and btw if i threw up on his face would be disrespect?
You are exactly right. These maniacs are reverting to the ‘aiyamul jaahiliya’ period.
Nabi sallallahu alaihi wasallam transformed this society through his sacrifice, that this country once sent light of wisdom and a noble culture to the whole world. Now these rascals are trying to make it plunge again into the age of darkness. As one arab sister said, is breast feeding an adult foreigner better than driving my own car??. How shameless this stupid is to issue such a verdict to degrade our Muslim women as a whole.
i was told this fatwa by a friend of mine.. and i really thought she was just trying to be funny! so i simply ignored her..
but after all this time i stumbled upon ur blog (which is great btw) to find the stupid joke actually true!!
there really is no limit to the human stupidity!!
This is the shameless fatwa the history has ever seen. These crooks are sinners in their private life that they come out with un-Islamic fatwas.
Hi there, was discussing this ruling w/ some friends recently and have a question. Was this ruling done as part of a salaried position? If so, was this work performed for a private organization or a government institution?
I would like say to all women in Saudi Arabia that the woman is equal to the men and that our prophet Muhammad considered women at fair value, the Saudi kingdom did not understand the application of Islam, if allowed women breastfed foreigners it is encouraged fornication erotism and chitane…, a woman must give pleasure only to her husband.
Fight my sisters from saudi arabia, fight to drive your car and to work.
Ahmed from north africa.
Loool the comments are so funny. I have a more practical solution.
There is a rare condition in which men lactate.
Problom SOLVED! let the men breastfeed men and be a big happy family! No need for women to go through such horrors.
well being a muslim this fatwa is quite shameful.our holy religion is not based on sheihks thoughts it,s on Holy Quran and sunah of Muhamad (P.B.U.H).riyadh writer said truth and explained the facts.virtue and evil is all over the world wether ksa or any other.best regards to all muslims…
companions of the prophet neither did this nor encouraged this. this is a fatwa of sinners and womanizers in the veil of sheikhs. The boy in the hadhees Salim raliallahu anhu was adopted by the same couple from childhood and was around 13 years when the prophet of allah advised them to suckle him.These stupid sheikhs could give this fatwa to anyone who is around 13 years old and adopted by the very guardian lady from his childhood. Rascals are misusing this to be implemented on adult drivers and servants destroying the chastity and dignity of women as breast feeding is a sacred thing reserved for infants for motherhood love. The Saudi government should publicly execute these womanizers.
This is absolutely hilarious! I could not believe it when I read it. The absurdities that happen in the muslim world. I am waiting for the day we get over this absolute utter stupidity
Unfortunately nothing but wishful thinking 😦
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Although I don’t advocate for this (especially not taking the milk directly from the breast since there is the added exposure involved) – there are texts that these things are based upon. There was one incident in the time of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wasalaam) wherein he allowed a woman to breastfeed an older boy (an orphan she was caring for if memory serves) in order to make him mahram.
Most people in the time of the prophet and after considered that to be an isolated and special case not a general allowance but to my knowledge Aisha was of the opinion that it was permitted.
This is where there is a difference of opinion. The vast majority of scholars and lay people are obviously not for this.
As for the question of what to do if you’re not lactating – that’s simple – you don’t have the option to make the ties of kinship via breastmilk if you’re not lactating!
It’s really a non-issue that has been given too much media hype in my opinion because honestly, the number of people who consider this halaal (amongst the scholars) is very minimal and the number of lay people who would be willing to do it is also minimal.
These men are perverted.
They see women as cattle.
We aren’t theirs to use.
girsl, girls. We are obviusly being over dramatic here.
We all know that every female past the age of puberty can lactate on command. Women’s breasts are nothing but sacks full of milk just waiting to be squeezed out.
We also know that ‘five fullfilling sessions’ for a grown man is equivelant to that of a new born baby. Therefore, this will not take away from the infant’s feeding time or lessen the milk in the mother’s breasts.
And finally, the obvious way to avoid a strange man from looking at a woman in a sexual way.. is to let him not only see her breasts, but to also suckle on them five times! Nevermind the fact that this could cause the problem they are trying to solve, and that by exposing him to her breast he risks developing sexual feelings for her.
But don’t worry, these horrible feelings will dissapear after all sessions are completed, which were enjoyable to all parties envoled!
Actually, any post-pubescent, pre-menopausal woman can produce breast milk, without having recently been pregnant. Regular sessions (every few hours for 1-3 days) of suction to the nipple will stimulate breast milk production…even if she’s never been pregnant, even if she hasn’t had a child recently.
Most of Fatwa bottles are in real stupids much far away from the realities of Islam.
They don’t have general knowledge or common sense either. We are facing the same problem in my country.