Welcome to the Middle Ages

Getting to the Middle Ages is not about time machines, it’s a geographical issue. Why have dinner at a cheesy Medieval Times when you can get the authentic experience right here in Saudi Arabia. We got everything you want.

I came across this chastity belt at a museum and it got me thinking. A man that asks his wife to wear this is basically saying your morals and character are not enough; I have to dress you in something to protect you. And that is the same argument that is used in our modern times Middle Ages to get women to wear niqabs!

Then there’s the guardianship system over adult women, the sponsorship system, that’s not unlike a master/slave relationship, over guest workers and finally the cherry on top is the latest decision to limit religious ruling to a legislative body that is made up of ultra conservatives and their friends. Did I hear somebody say “medieval Vatican”?! No, no this is Saudi Arabia, we’re Muslims.

This new decree by the King is supposedly to protect Islam from embarrassing fatwas like the recent adult breastfeeding fatwa and the much more serious call to kill all satellite channel owners who broadcast sinful shows. But to the ultra-conservatives, it’s a miraculous bestowal of victory and return to power. Recently average Saudis got a glimpse of the inner workings of religious fatwas and how even seemingly conservative long bearded muttawas think it’s ok to enjoy music and that gender segregation is not Islamic. People (or what our religious establishment calls “commoners” العوام) started thinking and looking things up for themselves. And that’s where this new legislation comes in, a return to the status quo. However the optimist in me does not think it’s all bad. First of all it’s too little, too late. With internet and TV in almost every home, you can’t control who people listen to anymore.  And secondly I’m hoping the whole thing is to appease the ultra conservatives in order to get them to pass something ultra liberal like …..fingers and toes crossed…..lifting the ban on women driving!?

142 Comments

Filed under Culture, Fatwas, Freedom of speech, Gender Apartheid, Popular

142 responses to “Welcome to the Middle Ages

  1. Pingback: Tweets that mention Welcome to the Middle Ages « Saudiwoman’s Weblog -- Topsy.com

  2. I think you are right, It is giving power back to the hierarchy. The religious elite get still more power.
    The contending fatwas are good, it gets people to read for themselves, and it is good they make themselves look like fools, and people will regard them as fools.

    People should read up the Quran for themselves more. I am always amazed how muslims sometimes know so very little of what’s actually in the Quran…
    It would be great if that decree is mean to soften them up for really good fatwa, (like women can drive their own means of transport like in the time of the prophet) but I think that what ever ”progress” there was in KSA, it will come to a complete stop now.

    I don’t live there but my impression looking back over the last 40 years (and what little I know) is that things are gradually going backward for women anyway. It seems to me that despite material comfort, most aspects of life have become worse for women, more restrictive. Niqab was not mandatory, women worked, and with men, women went out to go to the markets, which there still were at close distance, everybody had to work or do something, so there could not be this extreme seclusion, and you see very few women in abayas and niqabs on old photographs from KSA. I’ve seen (in a documentary) paintings of women from the south who wore coloured traditinal dresses, and a shawl or cap on their heads, and an older man from the village said it was men from Riyad who forced them into abayas, which were very bad for the women as they still had to work on the fields and tend the lifestock. And I understand no mahram system, not as restrictive and complete as it is now. Gender apartheid seems to have increased of the last five decades, not decreased.

    So my hopes for you are not high.😦

  3. I must admit Eman, that little may you know but I was always one of those that would not necessarily follow, but I would accept whatever came out of any religious scholars mouth, but ever since I have seen what ridiculous things came across people’s mouths, i.e. breastfeeding our drivers, it got me to start thinking, and really wonder where do these people get their facts. I don’t disagree with all of them, but I do with disagree with more than I would have last year. I have come to realise that they are humans who may make wrong decisions, or make decisions as they would like the outcome to be. Driving is not 7aram, nor is a woman actively taking part in the community.

    My toes and fingers will be crossed, and whatever else I can manage to cross, I am supposed to be applying for a driver now, but I am putting it off in hopes that perhaps I won’t need it… (Fat chance eh ;))

    Ps- I wish you watched last nights baini aw bainek… it spoke of woman’s issues and how they were in Medieval times, and I really think you would have enjoyed it🙂

  4. Ah, I honestly think it’s just another mean to control every aspect of our lives. Along with how ladies need a “guardian’s” approval to travel, Saher…etc. Think of it this way, the grand scholar committee are appointed directly by the king himself and also fired only by him. Remember Al-Shithri? The guy who got fired for his segregation fatwa in KAUST? Now the royal family practically controls our religion too. I know that you, me and many others do not follow their fatwas by the letter but I also know that most of the 18million Saudis (let alone 9m foreigners) actually do. I personally think it’s a step in the wrong direction, in your words, a victory for the ultra-conservative!

    Dark ages? sounds like it.. sounds like it indeed ..

  5. joelmartin

    It seems to me that the changes you want in the Kingdom could only be accomplished through civil war. The Wahabbi establishment would not roll over and accede to these kind of changes, would they?

  6. A'idah

    Aafke-Art says: ”I am always amazed how muslims sometimes know so very little of what’s actually in the Quran…”

    Sadly, the majority of Muslims in the world are illiterate and most of those are women. If Muslims could actually read for themselves what is in the Qur’an and other Islamic scripture, things might be very, very different.

    In fact, Islam and its self appointed religious hierarchy, might suffer the same sort of blow that Christianity did after the invention of the printing press. If more Muslims became literate. Muslims might actually decide for themselves. This, of course is the fear of the establishment and the reason to keep people ignorant, barefoot and dependent.

    My hopes for the downtrodden, oppressed of the world are very high, because, more and more people have access to media and the internet. They can observe how the rest of the world works and will want the same freedoms and even (gawd forbid) “stuff.” One can only hope that people will have access to and really watch the superb shows available such as great music, theater, dance, art, science, literature, history, travel, cooking, crafts, lectures on every subject, instead of “reality/entertainment” trash that is now claimed by certain people to be the “essence” of the west.

    Education is they key to liberation!

  7. Actually, I meant the literate Muslims.
    A lot of the ones I know have no clue about what is actually written in the Quran, and what is hadith, and and what is made up by scholars.

  8. Kha

    I cannot believe there are so many illiterate Muslims in the world. Isn’t Islam based on the WORD of God? What is the point if we do not read the word for ourselves? How do people pray and how do their prayers count if they really use the verses of the Qur’an in their prayers? It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
    What makes even less sense to me is that idea of sponsorship or “mehrs” or whatever. I will always say that when the “sponsorship” crap gets exported out of Saudi Arabia, that will prove to me that the country and its people have taken a good enough step forward out of the Middle Ages.
    Isn’t it ironic that the medieval years of Islam were much more forward (in some ways) than those of other religions? There Muslims were, at the forefront of science, design, and scholarship, while the rest of the world didn’t yet understand that clean water would save them from death. What happened?!

  9. A'idah

    Aafke-Art says: ”.. literate Muslims.
A lot of the ones I know have no clue about what is actually written in the Quran, and what is hadith, and what is made up by scholars.”

    Conversely, Christian fundamentalists seem to know the Bible by heart. Since only 12% of Muslims are Arabs and the Qur’an is written in classical Arabic, that few ordinary people can read, translations must be used.

    Kha says: I cannot believe there are so many illiterate Muslims in the world.

    Muhammad was illiterate. It is a fact that about 60% of Muslims are illiterate today and 80% of those are women. Iran has the most educated populace of all Islamic nations.

    ”Today 40 per cent of adults in the Arab region are illiterate. And projections show that if current efforts continue, 28 per cent of the region’s population will still be illiterate in 2015…

    …The greatest numbers of illiterates are in five countries: Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, and Yemen where roughly 49 of the 67 million illiterate adults live. This constitutes 73 per cent of all illiterates in the twenty-two Arab countries. Ten Arab countries, namely Jordan, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Djibouti, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, Lebanon, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and Mauritania account for only 3.6 million illiterates…

    …What is more alarming is that the rates of illiteracy among women, youth, and the underprivileged sectors of society are even higher, particularly in rural regions. In Yemen, for example, 54 per cent of the country’s 9 million people are illiterate and the figure increases to about 90 per cent among women and 76 per cent among men in rural areas, according to the National Committee for Literacy…

    …The need for action is urgent…”When we talk about 40 per cent illiteracy in the Arab world, we talk about the impossibility of an Arab renaissance,” he says. http://portal.unesco.org/education/en/ev.php-URL_ID=8521&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

    Kha says: Isn’t Islam based on the WORD of God? “

    Depends on who is a believer.

    Kha says: ’Isn’t it ironic that the medieval years of Islam were much more forward (in some ways) than those of other religions? There Muslims were, at the forefront of science, design, and scholarship, while the rest of the world didn’t yet understand that clean water would save them from death. What happened?!”

    What happened is that the Islamic “forefront” is actually a myth. It was the conquered peoples who were at the “forefront.” Those people worked as dhimmies for Muslims, while the ummah took credit for their accomplishments. Islam was surely a conduit, but not much of a developer or inventor of progress.

    “The architectural design of mosques, for example, long a source of pride among Muslims, was copied from the shape and structure of Byzantine churches…The Dome of the Rock is a Byzantine martyrium — there is nothing particularly Islamic about it… The astrolabe was developed, if not perfected, long before Muhammad was born. Avicenna (980-1037), Averroes (1128-1198), and the other Muslim philosophers built on the work of the pagan Greek Aristotle, while Aristotle’s work was preserved from the ravages of the Dark Ages not first by Muslims, but by Christians such as the fifth-century priest Probus of Antioch, who introduced Aristotle to the Arabic-speaking world. The Christian Huneyn ibn-Ishaq (809-873) translated many works by Aristotle, Galen, Plato and Hippocrates into Syriac, from which they were translated into Arabic by his son. The Jacobite Christian Yahya ibn ‘Adi (893-974) also translated works of philosophy into Arabic, and wrote his own; his treatise The Reformation of Morals has occasionally been erroneously attributed to various of his Muslim contemporaries. His student, another Christian named Abu ‘Ali ‘Isa ibn Zur’a (943-1008), also made Arabic translations of Aristotle and other Greek writers from Syriac.”

    Continued below:

  10. A'idah

    Continued from above:

    The first Arabic-language medical treatise was written by a Christian priest and translated into Arabic by a Jewish doctor in 683. The first hospital, was founded in Baghdad during the Abbasid caliphate by a Nestorian Christian. A pioneering medical school was founded at Gundeshapur in Persia — by Assyrian Christians. The world’s first university may not have been the Muslims’ Al-Azhar in Cairo, as is often claimed, but the Assyrian School of Nisibis. —

    The fundamental basis of modern mathematics was laid down thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims. See History of Babylonian Mathematics: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbs=tl%3A1&q=history+of+babylonian+mathematics%2BNeugebauer&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=cb4a39d4d80f3fb2

    Another claim is that Muslim doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease. Still, the overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%) were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries Assyrians began a systematic translation of the Greek body of knowledge into Assyrian. At first, they concentrated on the religious works but then quickly moved to science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which the Moors brought with them into Spain, and which the Spaniards translated into Latin and spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the European Renaissance.”

    All civilizations stand on the shoulders of giants who went before. The issue is one of giving and taking credit.

    In the 15th century when they were driven out of Europe, Muslims could no longer conquer and use others for their intellectual march forward, at that point they turned inward, which is pretty much where they have stayed ever since. In the modern world, Muslims, especially Gulf Arabs, use expatriates as slave labor or technical labor. If I recall correctly the average is one expat for every four Arabs. The most prevalent Ph.D. degree in the Arab world is “Religious or Islamic Studies.” Not particularly useful in the job market.

    “In a stunning indictment of the Arab world, the Arab Human Development Report 2002, written by Arab intellectuals, concluded that Arab societies are crippled by a lack of political freedom and knowledge. High-quality, mind-opening education is virtually non-existent. Half of all Arab women cannot read or write. The facts point to a bleak situation: “The entire Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one-fifth the number that Greece translates,” says the survey. It adds that in the 1,000 years since the reign of the Caliph Maa’moun the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain does in a year…

    …you seldom encounter a Muslim name in scientific journals. Muslim contributions to pure and applied science – measured in terms of discoveries, publications, patents and processes – are marginal. Muslims are conspicuous by their absence from the world of ideas and scholarship…”

    “Islam and Science – Religious Orthodoxy and the Battle for Rationality” http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Science-Religious-Orthodoxy-Rationality/dp/1856490254

    Continued below:

    • How lovely! The other side of the same coin muttawas are on, a hate-mongering radical racist who uses “historical facts” to prove that a certain group of humanity is inferior . So if you’re Muslim then automatically you can’t think or innovate?! Why are you reading my blog? Do you think that this approach is going to get you anywhere? How do you think that I as an Arab Muslim feel when I read your nonsense?

      • Unnamed

        I missed this post by the way. Kudos to you. I hope my other responses dont come across as being too personal. I genuinely believe your heart’s in the right place, it’s the approach that’s slightly lacking somewhat.

      • Anonymous Blue

        I don’t think it’s about being “Muslim” or not, or having anything to do with ethnicity per se. It is about mindset and what impact the doctrines themselves are doing to the person who follows them. You may see yourself as a Muslim, and that is your right, but to be honest so many things you say, do and believe are against traiditional Islam (which should be a cpmpliment) that many would say that you are perhaps more “non-Islamic” than anything else in a lot of your thinking.

    • Summa

      I’m glad to see someone debate Islamic history in these blogs, and how so called Islamic advances had very little to do with Islam or Arab Muslims. At the same time as a student of ancient history I wanted to remind you that Assyrians had as little to do with these advances as Muslims.
      Akkadian was a language of a much later origin that simply rewrote the original Sumerian tablets, a language closely related to an early version of the dravidian language, combined with what is known as Chaldean, or Kaldu in Assyrian.
      All this has been proven and extensively written about as a result of the many tablets found in Iraq and Indus Valley. The original medical texts including the earliest hospitals, and medical advancements were all originated in Indus Valley and the original medical texts were translated from Sumerian and Chaldean to Akkadian and Babylonian. During Islamic times majority of all the Medical texts were translated from Sanskrit to Farsi, and finally to Arabic.
      Sumerians and Chaldean religions were the very basis of all the organized religions and have their earliest records dating back 10,000 yrs before the present, and even later to their start in India, and northern regions of central Asia.
      Ironically, the Assyrian are the earliest links to the formation of the strict rules governing Christianity, Islam, and Judaism since they are largely credited with reforming the rules by forcing the use of the veil, harems, and enforcing laws that restricted women as early as 2000 BC. Interestingly, the Quran it self was written by Persian monks of the Jewish Christian belief, which is the reason why the Quran is a virtual summary of the Jewish Torah. Even Sharia law is a copy of the Jewish code of law.
      Sadly it is not literacy that’s so much of a concern but that majority of the people who are literate in middle eastern countries care little about reading, or the history of their own country, much less the history of their own religions.

  11. Ari

    Witchcraft certainly goes with medieval chastity belts:

    MAKKAH: An Islamic scholar, a psychiatrist and a spiritual healer who uses the Qur’an to treat people possessed by jinns have come together to help Turki, a 29-year-old Saudi who has been chained on a bed for over six years after, according to his father, being possessed by a female jinn.

    http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article92027.ece

    ”Beheading of Man in Saudi Arabia for Witchcraft Averted
    http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Beheading-of-Man-in-Saudi-Arabia-for-Witchcraft-Averted-89781397.html

    “The crime of ‘witchcraft’ is being used against all sorts of behaviour, with the cruel threat of state-sanctioned executions,”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8378483.stm

    ”On November 2, Saudi Arabia executed Mustafa Ibrahim for sorcery in Riyadh. Ibrahim, an Egyptian working as a pharmacist in the northern town of `Ar’ar, was found guilty of having tried “through sorcery” to separate a married couple, according to a Ministry of Interior statement.

    http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/14/saudia18051.htm

  12. A'idah

    saudiwoman says: ”How lovely! The other side of the same coin muttawas are on, a hate-mongering radical racist who uses “historical facts” to prove that a certain group of humanity is inferior . So if you’re Muslim then automatically you can’t think or innovate?!”

    Please show where any of the facts that I posted are incorrect. Aside from historical facts, I quoted a number of people, specifically Islamic scholars who have written recent articles. What is “racist” or “hate mongering” about facts?

    Certainly Muslims can think and innovate. Too bad that they do not. There have been plenty of articles written on that subject, by Muslims.

    The facts are that the world is not seeing Muslims get off their backsides and do much about their situation. They are too busy blaming others.

    ”Why are you reading my blog?
    It’s a well known blog. Why not?
    Also, because it’s fascinating to watch a raging, angry privileged person complain all the time.😉
    ”Do you think that this approach is going to get you anywhere?
    I don’t need to get anywhere. I am where I want to be. You are not. What are YOU going to do about it, other than complain all the time and then take off for Europe when your prison becomes too much?

    ”How do you think that I as an Arab Muslim feel when I read your nonsense?”
    I was hoping that it might spur you to think. However, I see that you are into knee-jerk reactions like so many Muslims, when confronted with factual truths. You tend to lash out a great deal. Why not channel that anger into something positive?

    It’s been pointed out on a number of threads that Muslim women need to fight for their rights just as western women did. It won’t happen magically. Those in power won’t give you your rights. You have to take them. Of course, that might require some sacrifice.

    • Although you have quoted many and brought “facts” on the table, but I can tell you that since you’re not referencing you will never be believed.

      All I understood from your intellectual spur there is that Islam and Muslims did not contribute anything to science whatsoever and they were just the means of reserving the Greek sciences until Europe woke up again. Although entirely not true, this is a huge contribution enough by itself.

      I’m not gonna argue with you about the examples you have given because they might (or might not) be true. But I will give you one and ONLY one example to show you how untrue what you’re saying is. Al-Hasen Ibn Al-Haitham, AKA AlHazen. Here your western media are praising him like no other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen I don’t want you to read the whole thing, just read his works and references. If you wanna delve more into this be my guest.

      • Unnamed

        There’s no point bothering with that one.

        You see, if a Persian, a Chinaman, Russian (insert a member of any ethnic group) accepts Islam and contributes to the Islamic civilisation (even if we’re to go with this bogus argument and ignore all the Arab Scientists and polymaths)….. it doesn’t count.

        It only counts if they were born in Mecca or the surrounding areas. Nevermind the fact that Islam is a religion that’s open to all from it inception. That the equality and brotherhood of all mankind regardless of colour or race is a fundamental tenant of the faith.

  13. Let’s just make it clear, there are men in the west that put on psychological chastity belts on their wives/girl friends. There are jealous men everywhere, and I have even personally had a close friend of mine very recently told to quit her job, and not to mingle with other men by her boyfriend. He is Not Saudi/Arab, or Muslim. He is Christian and Canadian. I studied the Sociology of gender discrimination, and believe me it’s not just in our region this occurs, it hits closer to home then many of our enlightened blog guests wish to accept. My point in mentioning this is that there are men who want to control their ‘women’ all over the world. I am in Saudi, and have a Saudi/Arab/Muslim husband who has ZERO problem with who my friends are; male or female, does not make me cover (and if I ever chose to, shall not disallow me to cover- it is MY body after all), and lets me be me!

    So all this anti-Islam BS is just that – BS. It is in each person’s nature, regardless of religion what they do. This blog is talking about the Saudi Society, and how tradition has pretty much taken away what Religion has given us women light years before any other religion or culture.

    PS- I really think people should stop simply googling ‘ Saudi, Evil, Islam, Evil, Women’, or whatever the heck you’re googling. Read the full facts, don’t nit and pick what you want to read to get to the conclusion you have already decided you will reach. Don’t just google what you want to find!

    • Alicia

      I am always suspicious when men begin to argue about who treats “their” women better. The finger pointing going on between the “west” and “islam” is just diverting us all from the real and sad facts of the world: the international mafia is taking over through drugs and the sex trade. People, women in particular, are in a horrible condition from mexico to south east asia to the Balkans and Russia. What are our governments doing about it? Nothing. They are priding themselves on their fantasies of how they treat women with so much respect while ignoring the real plight of real women in a real and dangerous world. There the political, here the personal.
      You are so correct that it is not about Islam vs. ???. I too have a wonderful muslim husband who has no problem with my working and supports me and my attempts to have a family and work too. My “liberal,” non-muslim, US-raised ex’s were no where near so supportive. They would sabotage me at every turn and then Gaslight me until I nearly lost my mind. The problem is intolerant, women hating, other hating, men rising to power and controlling everyone else. It doesn’t matter what other religion they are they will just put it to use in their control of others.

  14. jenna

    Why have dinner at a cheesy Medieval Times when you can get the authentic experience right here in Saudi Arabia. We got everything you want.

    I just wanted to say that was a hilarious phrase… you are a master of dry rhetorical wit…are you secretly British? You almost made me spit my coffee out this morning. well done.

  15. A'idah

    Amrush says: ”Although you have quoted many and brought “facts” on the table, but I can tell you that since you’re not referencing you will never be believed.”

    I posted the names of scholars and links, evidently you didn’t see those, Amrush? Not believing the realities of KSA and the Arab/Islamic world is the major hinderance to progress. First one must admit that there is a problem.

    Regarding Ibn al-Haythem. You may want to note that he was born into the Persian empire. That corroborates what many people have stated about the accomplishments of Islam having been those of the conquered peoples.

    So, what has the ummah done lately, say for the last millenia? Where are the world renowned Islamic/Saudi scientists? There are only 7 Nobel Prizes for 1.3-1.5 billion Muslims. Most of those are not in hard science. Did you read the revealing article by Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy— a professor of nuclear and high-energy physics at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, and visiting professor at MIT and the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, among other institutions—on the dearth of modern Islamic science?

    “Islam and Science – Religious Orthodoxy and the Battle for Rationality”

    http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Science-Religious-Orthodoxy-Rationality/dp/1856490254

    Here is another dose of reality pursued by Muslim scholars:
    The world’s 1.5 billion Muslims produce barely 1% of the world’s scientific literature; R&D expenditure in the 57 member countries of the” Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) lags way behind that of China, let alone that of the industrialized world; and tens of thousands of Arab scientists have joined the brain drain to the West. Predominantly Muslim countries are paying for these trends in terms of lost development.

    This is a frank diagnosis that comprises the introduction to an excellent portfolio on Science in the Islamic World prepared by various Muslim scholars and posted on the Science Dev Net website http://www.scidev.net/en/science-and-innovation-policy

    So, check those out and after you have digested them, we can discuss why Arabs/Saudis are not making progress in development, science or human rights.

    • I don’t like discussing examples but what Persian empire? the one that was long past dead 2 centuries before AlHaytham’s time? Born in Basra, a city built by Caliph Umar? and died in Cairo built by the Fatimid Caliph? Looks like it’s not me who needs to get his facts right …

      I’m not saying that Arabs and Muslims are the core of R&D nowadays. No one in their right mind can say that. I’m not a hypocrite. But taking away the contributions of a millennium ago isn’t for you or anyone nowadays to do. Yes, some of them have been exaggerated but isn’t that how history goes? Everything tends to be a tad larger (or smaller, depends on your side of a victor’s justice) than what it actually is?

      I’ve always said that it’s been 600 years since a major contribution from Arabs and/or Muslims but those 6 centuries came after 8 centuries full of every kind of contribution.

      Here have a fine read: http://www.amazon.com/1001-Inventions-Muslim-Heritage-World/dp/0955242614

      I’m not defending our current position I’m defending the heritage while you’re attacking both. You want to discuss why are we in this state? Well, I can come up with 1001 reasons why. After all, me and you do not live in a shell nor in an ivory tower. Right?

      PS. Please do not get me wrong. I know you mean well and want to improve (one way or the other) the current worldly illiteracy situation. But don’t you think you’re addressing the wrong people with the wrong set of facts?

    • Alicia

      If muslims are leaving islamic countries to pursue science, then it seems that Islam is still influencing scientific endeavors; to become scientifically productive does not require the repudiation of islam, only of a certain kind of government/social structure. The question then is what constitutes an islamic government or society. In no way is it clear that we must accept the religious authorities ideas of what counts as an islamic society, except that they say so and have the power to enforce their say so, especially given that they give rulings that clearly do not originate and sometimes contradict the Quran (and reason! Which the Quran says one may not go against). The Christian empires did no better when under the authority of such people. Perhaps here is a good moment to learn from the example, well, part of the example, of the Jews: near universal (male, imagine if they had included females!) literacy and the ability to argue with authority on the grounds of reason.

  16. It seems to me that Islam is in the middle ages right now, what with all the repression of women, the holy wars, martyrdom, stagnation of science…

    Maybe all patriarchal religions have somewhat the same chronology. Start off with a bang, conquer a lot of territory, force people into ”The One True Faith”, become all dogmatized, go into centuries of dark age repression, bigotry, misogyny, hate and fear of women, holy wars, burning witches (or stoning them), suppression and religious madness, and then some kind of enlightenment starts up, texts are re-interpreted to match the more evolved moral development of the believers, rationalism gains more ground, and eventually more and more people consider the religion as an archaic relic and become deists or atheists.

    And right now Islam is still smack in the middle of its dark age.

  17. Unnamed

    Saudi Woman:

    Even in this Holy Month you continue with the poisonous attacks on your own culture and religion.

    If you don’t like Saudi Arabia, it’s easy, you can relocate elsewhere and leave your religion and enjoy your life. It’s not the most difficult thing in the world.

    Most of the respondents here seem to be Atheists – they dont care, but I’ll remind you (as a brother) that on the final day, every single word you have written or spoken will be brought before you, and you will have to answer for your actions to the Lord of the Worlds.

    Those who cause fitnah, confusion and division will have their hand full that day. You can do as you please with your life providing you’re not inciting/encouraging confrontations and divisions within your community/group.

    May Allah accept your fasting/prayer and guide you on the straight path sister.

    • Leila

      Its saddening that the only thing you can grasp from this blog is that Eman wants to leave her religion. Can you only think in black and white? So if she is critical of a fatwa, the establishment and some cultural practices it makes her a non Muslim? Shame on you. I dont agree with some of the comments, but it seems you are annoyed the blog is giving others a platform for discussion.

      • Unnamed

        It’s the sum total of her blog I’m looking at.

        – Nothing is worse for a Saudi man than imagining himself a woman.

        – Welcome to the Middle Ages.

        – Wife-tracker revisited.

        – Saudi disillusionment with the religious establishment.

        – The French burqa ban. (Which she supports)

        – Muttawa Raid. (Taking her non-Muslim friend on a ‘Muttawa Raid Safari’….

        That’s just from the first page. The only positive article concerns her father’s book and Falafel. She can carry on with that negative bile, but would be advised to take it easy, at least for month.

        …. then resume her work of reinforcing negative stereotypes that outsiders have of Saudi culture and Islam.😉

  18. A'idah

    Amrush says: ”I don’t like discussing examples but what Persian empire?”

    Sorry, but Basra was part of Buyid Persia at the time. Source: Encyclopædia Britannica. Don’t forget that Muslims decimated the sophisticated Persian empire. Modern Iranians still HATE Arabs as a result.

    ”I know you mean well and want to improve (one way or the other) the current worldly illiteracy situation. But don’t you think you’re addressing the wrong people with the wrong set of facts?

    Why?

    Consider—the bloggers are educated Muslims are they not? Who else can do something? You don’t really expect those still living in tribal ignorance to come into the 21st century?

    The majority of the world’s Muslims are illiterate. Literate or not, Muslims complain incessantly about their situation, but seem to do little about it. While many Africans and S. Americans are forging ahead, all too many Muslims educated or illiterate, continue to sit like a frog in a slowly heating water bath. Few seem to have the good sense to jump out.

    Complain and blame is the name of the game. Where is the action?

    It is you who have the facts wrong and are grasping at straws. The fact is that the majority of Muslim accomplishments were accomplished by the conquered peoples. Look up Muslim scientists and you will note that most of those were Persian, as well as Jews and Christians. None of those peoples were Muslim, including virtually all peoples in the middle east, before Islam decided to expand via the sword. Certainly, many converted and were marginal Muslims. Who wouldn’t convert when the choice was conversion, death or the jizya—protection tax?

    Of course I mean well. However, I get really, really tired after decades of dealing with countless Muslims in university, at work and in my personal life, knowing that nothing has changed for them. In fact, things are much worse. These days, they are blogging their complaints.

    The negativity of religion appears to be all consuming. “Inshallah” they say and sit back, waiting for their god to do something.

    Well, as the saying goes: ”God helps those who help themselves!”

    Aafke-Art says: “Maybe all patriarchal religions have somewhat the same chronology.”

    The BIG difference is that the Jews had a Reformation and reject the draconian god of the Old Testament, while the New Testament has a God of ”love thy neighbor as thyself.” In none of the world’s other holy books are followers mandated to conquer the world, while the Qur’an has precisely such a command.
    Islam claims that the Qur’an is immutable, for all time and thus, serves as a war manual to those who emulate the deeds of Muhammad. Therefore, unless believers reject this and many other misanthropic commands, we will get nowhere.

    It is nevertheless fascinating how a 7th century, supremacist, imperialistic war cult, many of whose “modern” followers believe in magic and jinn, a cult that has brought nothing to the world but blood and tears, insists that it must rule humanity.

    Just imagine for a moment what sort of a world it would be if Islam were to dominate. First, given that most of the serious, manual labor in the world is done by women, at the very least 50% of the workforce would be decimated. Shops and businesses would have to close numerous times a day for prayer. Then, given that a majority of Muslims are illiterate, modern tech services from food distribution to computer maintenance would break down, worldwide because, there would be no-one to support these systems. Most of the non-Muslims would have been killed and those who were not, would now be Muslims or dhimmies paying the Islamic protection tax—jizya.
    Clearly one can extrapolate and carry this to infinitum, to the place where humanity would once again be as if in the dark ages. What is really, really bizarre is watching people who believe that they are superior, who are still living in the dark ages and depending on the non-Islamic world for their daily bread.

    How cool is that? Let’s all go back to the dark ages!

  19. Unnamed

    Hey Ai’dah. One Word: YAWN!

  20. A'idah

    Unnamed says: ”then resume her work of reinforcing negative stereotypes that outsiders have of Saudi culture and Islam. “

    The truth does get a lot of people in a very defensive tizzy.

    Why don’t you take up the gauntlet, Unnamed, and tell us about all those positives in both KSA and its religion?

    People have asked repeatedly and no one has yet responded with anything, other than that they like middle eastern food.

    Come on! We really want to know all about the positives that Saudis claim exist in their culture.

    Where I live it is summer and tourist season. That means theater and music, glorious music, art as well as food and wine festivals. At least once a week our family, the community and the tourists attend a public concert, a play, a dance festival, a musical, a club where men, women and often children all sit together enjoying the performances late into the night. Many of the ladies are in lovely, skin baring gowns while the men wear tuxedoes, suits or jackets. Others come dressed casually-chic, showing off lots of summer tan. Some children are dressed up, others in jeans. All are well behaved and enjoy the summer evenings to the fullest. Couples, young and old, discretely touch each other, hold hands and sway to the music.

    During the daytime there are art, as well as food and wine festivals. It is hot so people dress appropriately in light, short summer clothing. Lots of skin is showing on both men and women. And miracle of miracles, no one misbehaves. Alcohol is freely available, but no one gets drunk. Men do not leer or grope women. They do not harass young women trying to get their phone numbers. They do not stare lecherously at pre-pubescent girls. Women do not lower their eyes and move away from the men. People look at each other and smile. (Conversely, the only ones who are leering are the male Muslim shop owners, those who daily hang around on the sidewalks outside of their shops, checking out the passing female tourists. Naturally, their wives are locked up at home.) All festival goers move together through the festival spaces, concert halls, theaters and clubs in a civilized fashion, being careful not to invade the personal space of fellow theater or festival goers.

    I couldn’t help but think of the poor, impoverished, unnatural society of KSA, with its gender apartheid, who cannot enjoy human companionship and great theater.

    How’s the summer in KSA? Anything to do this month but fast and eat all night, YAWN, or shop ‘till you drop—without single men in the malls of course. 😉

  21. Unnamed

    Are you sure you’re not Arianna? Someone else was here a while back posting the exact same nonsense.

    Firstly, I’m not an Arabian of Saud. Secondly, you seem be displaying an inflated sense of self importance sadly. There’s no need for justifying or selling anything to you, just as you dont have to justify or sell anything to us.

    It’s really a veeery simple concept when you really think about.

    Enjoy your life and stop fretting over what others do, how they live or what they believe in.

  22. Jacques

    I just picked up these little gems of Saudi Islamic “equality” rules, should anyone want to visit:

    ”Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country in which Islamic law is strictly enforced.  You should respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times and be aware of your actions to ensure that they do not offend other cultures or religious beliefs, …

    You should note the following (during Ramadan):

    • Do not eat, drink or smoke in public view during the daytime (including in your car).  This is considered highly disrespectful.  Sips of water should be taken discreetly. ..
    • Be careful about your dress during Ramadan.  Skimpy clothes should not be worn at any time, but during Ramadan the standards may be policed even more carefully than usual.
    • The majority of eating and drinking establishments will be closed during daylight hours, but you can find some coffee houses that are screened from public view.  
    • Driving may be more erratic than usual, particularly during the later afternoon and early evening, be patient and show tolerance especially during this time.
    • Loud music and dancing is considered disrespectful during Ramadan. Please do not play music or dance in public areas.

    The public practice of any form of religion other than Islam is not permitted; nor is an intention to convert others. 

    Islamic codes of behaviour and dress are also enforced rigorously.  You should respect them fully. Homosexual behaviour and adultery are illegal and can carry the death penalty.

    The penalties for the possession of, or trade in, alcohol are severe. Both result in prison sentences.  The punishment for importing drugs includes the death penalty… The importation of pork products is also forbidden. The possession of pornographic material, or of illustrations of scantily dressed people, especially women, is prohibited.

    Suspects can be held without charge and those detained have in the past not been allowed legal representation.  The Saudi authorities have detained witnesses and victims of crimes. ..

    Photography of government buildings, military installations and palaces is not allowed.  You should avoid photographing local people. It is illegal for women to drive.

    Anyone involved in a commercial dispute with a Saudi company or individual may be prevented from leaving the country pending resolution of the dispute. Passports are often retained by sponsors or government bodies for official purposes.  …It is illegal to hold two passports in Saudi Arabia: second passports will be confiscated by the immigration authorities if they are discovered. ” http://www.saudimuseum.com/

    Sounds like Paradise in the desert.

    • Alicia

      I just heard on the radio that due to “three strikes” laws you can be given a life imprisonment sentence in the USA for stealing a bicycle. Maybe it’s not a hand chopping, but it sounds pretty draconian to me. The zealots are everywhere trying to capitalize on our fears and weaknesses. The great thing about the US is we have the Isley brothers helping to strengthen us in our fight of the powers that be. : )

  23. @A’idah He was a Muslim from Arab descent who was born in Al-Buwayh dynasty time (the Persian Muslim de facto rulers under the Abbasid caliphate). For once more I do not like discussing examples. Point being he’s a Muslim and he pioneered optics.

    Guys. What is happening here in Saudi Arabia is NOT Islamic law .. IT IS NAJDI TRADITION and the MOST STRICT tradition at it. Do not mix things up. I’m Saudi and I never agreed with it. Why did I not try to change anything yet? I’m a college student and drowning in my own studies. But there are many peers that I know personally stepping ahead and starting to change. These things do not change in a whim they take time .. A lot of time. It took Europe centuries to wake up, please do not expect us to do it any faster.

    @Jacques.. Imagine me living in Canada, Sweden or Switzerland would they allow me to work, use their services and maximize my living without any taxes? I don’t think so. I pay taxes there as a visitor that may or may not be returned when I leave. Right? Ok, all Muslims are obliged to pay taxes (Zakat) that only Muslims pay. It’s only fair for Dhimmi citizens to pay a parallel tax.

    At the edge of the sword.. I agree that it happened but in many times as a reactive action. The Romans started the attacks, btw. And the hatred between Arabs and Persians were older than Islam itself (Read about the Battle of Thee Qar*, not much about it on the internet though) However, in many cases it was different… No Muslim soldier had set foot in Maldives, Indonesia or Malaysia. You cannot project what Muslims are doing right now on what they used to do 14 centuries ago or vice versa. Times are different and the people are different.

    I don’t see what’s the big fuss. The Great Britain had a piece of land everywhere conquered on the shot of a bullet we don’t see you hating on the Queens and Kings of old? Correct me if I’m wrong but all Europe hated Napoleon back then but now he’s just a legend and many love his character. no? It’s all about your side of victor’s justice. right? So Arabs and Muslims conquered the world and many non-Muslims converted to Muslims but no one can say that anyone person had a sword on his neck and was dictated the teachings of Islam. What was in battle was in battle, otherwise no force was exerted. Proof is simple, no less than one third of Lebanese people are non-Muslims. Original Palestinian people include many Christians and Jews. No Arab country has a complete 100% population of Muslims (Yes, Not even Saudi Arabia).

    All I mean is that things are mixed up and it’s hard to change them. Muslims are not helping themselves either. Things are heading to a better direction slowly. Don’t we all agree that recognizing the problem is the first step of solving it? I guess that’s what’s this blog is all about.. BTW: one hand doesn’t clap ..

  24. A'idah

    Amrush says: ”For once more I do not like discussing examples.”

    Examples are what it’s all about, Amrush.

    This is all very relevant, because Islam has its origins in Arabia. Today the Salafists and the Wahhabs are trying to export their version of “true Islam” as Muhammad and his companions practiced it, all over the world. The Saudis are funding that “outreach” while proselytizing is against the law in KSA.

    One really has to laugh at the hypocrisy of it all. “We demand equal rights in your lands,” say Muslims, “but you, infidel, can’t have them in ours.”

    Amrush says: ”These things do not change in a whim they take time .. A lot of time. It took Europe centuries to wake up, please do not expect us to do it any faster.”

    Europeans were never, ever as imprisoned by their religions as are Muslims, in particular not their women. They may have been chattel, but they got to walk about freely, unveiled in their societies.

    Take time? A thousand years is not enough time?

    From the most “advanced” civilization (NOT) to the dark ages and even further? Did Muslims leave the planet for a millennia? Tell us exactly why, when Muslims could not longer use the slave labor of conquered peoples they reverted to their original, pre-Islamic, backward state—where most still are today. The ONLY reason that some of the filthy rich Islamic states, like KSA, have any modernity is because of the curse of oil and expatriates whom they have hired for their expertise. If every expat left tomorrow the wheels of modernity would stop in KSA and virtually every Gulf state. In Malaysia and Indonesia it is still the non-Muslims who do most of the work.

    ”Ok, all Muslims are obliged to pay taxes (Zakat) that only Muslims pay. It’s only fair for Dhimmi citizens to pay a parallel tax.”

    “Dhimmi”!? It was a mafia-like protection tax. Those who didn’t pay were attacked.

    Muslims are notorious for trying to get out of zakat as well as corruption— as many a Gulf news story has shown. Only the “dhimmis” keep the Islamic state’s coffers full. Once everyone “reverts” to Islam to avoid paying the protection tax, every state will be a failed state with no one paying taxes.😉

    ”The Romans started the attacks, btw. And the hatred between Arabs and Persians”

    Dear boy, you need to study a bit more at university. Your historical knowledge is full of fantasies and inaccuracies that feed into the Islamic fairy tale that Islam is peaceful and benign. If it were so then Muhammad himself would not have led over 20 aggressive battles to further his Islamic empire. If it were peaceful then there would have not been over 1,400 years of bloody Islamic jihad worldwide.

    What business did the Arabs have to burst out of Arabia and attack virtually every nation in the middle east, then spreading into Europe and India, slaughtering millions along the way over many centuries—to further their imperialistic, Islamic hegemony? What business did Islam have in the Holy Land? That was the territory of the Jews and the Christians for millennia before Islam came along and fought bloody, conquering jihad. After 200 years of Islamic aggression in the Holy Land the First Crusade was called. What business did Islam have in Spain, al Andalus? What business did Muslims have in eastern Europe?

    Evidently you and most Muslims approve of Islamic hegemonic imperialism? Just imagine a world under Islamic rule: The corruption, the backwardness, the misanthropy the misogyny, the racism, the anti-Semitism. Do you really think that the modern world will stand for that? Check with the Chinese. They have an equal population to the ummah and will literally not stand for any nonsense from Islamic supremacists.

    Do look up the battles of Islam and see for yourself. Many were even fought during the holy month of Ramadan, including the first Islamic aggression, the battle of Badr in 624, where a caravan was literally butchered by Muhammad’s forces. There were plenty of Ramadan battles even into the 20th and 21st centuries. The overwhelming majority of Islamic battles were NOT defensive! Your friend Wiki can help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Muslim_history

    • Alicia

      “Europeans were never, ever as imprisoned by their religions as are Muslims, in particular not their women. They may have been chattel, but they got to walk about freely, unveiled in their societies.”

      I wouldn’t go this far. Women of the middle ages were veiled, as were the Puritans. In the name of Christianity, my Aunt had to hand over all her bank accounts and credit cards when she married in the US in the 1950’s. Under the Christian inspired coverature laws, women lost all identity when married. The only way for a Christian women to retain her independence was to become a nun (ie, reject her sexual, feminine, being). Women could not hold property, could not work without a husband’s consent and had to forfeit all wages to the husband if he wanted it so, could not attend university (Many campuses did not permit women on the premises and certainly not in the library all the way up until the 1920’s) could be raped by their husbands, forced into marriages by their fathers etc. etc. It does not matter what the religious ideology is, women have been permitted freedom when it was to the benefit of men (they need or labor and income) and imprisoned when it wasn’t (we are a source of embarrassment and shame because we have different ways of doing things).

  25. Unnamed

    A’idah:

    I’m interested to know if you can cite ONE EXAMPLE of a completely pacifist society.

    A society that was not involved in ANY war at all – With a hostile group surrounding them.

    What kind of a crazy standard are the early Muslims being held to I wonder? Were they human or Angels?

    As for the “Mafia protection tax”, your ignorance here speaks volumes.

    With that logic everytime I pay my taxes, the government is extorting money out of me. It’s taken straight out of my paycheck as well, the robbery!

    Let’s not mention the fact that ‘income tax’ does not exist in Islam. Muslims contribute about 2.5% of their wages annually as Zakat. The non-Muslims pay a token figure of roughly 1% of their annual income, since they also share the same services as the wider population. Doh!

    What were you expecting, a non-Muslim should be exempt from contribution? I hope now you will now begin campaigning (with the same vigiour you display here) for the exemption of Muslims in the Western World from taxation or wherever they maybe? Count me in!

  26. A’idah, you clearly do not have a clear idea what are you talking about. Badr, the first real battle of Islam, was between two armies and the caravan you mentioned went on safely to Makkah and no one on it dropped a drop of blood. The whole Badr battle and the following ones were a result of a series of skirmishes between Quraish and Muslims WHICH started a year before Badr when a Quraishi scouting group attacked a sheep herder on the skirts of Medina killing the herder and stealing the herd. But, by your standards, I think Muslims should’ve went on with gifts to Quraish and give them dates and money as a thank you for off loading some sheep that were only good at eating their greens. I guess I know my history well at least better than you.

    Yes, I agreed with you that many wars were fought but what do you really expect? Again, all the greatest civilizations in the world had wars. And as Unnamed mentioned early Muslims are held against the wrong set of standards. You didn’t answer my analogy to Great Britain, Napoleon or any other civilization and not even to the fact that no one was forced to embrace Islam and only armies that stood in between Muslims and giving out the divine message were fought. Ok, you don’t believe in the divinity of Islam so be it. You have your principles I have mine. Hell, you probably hold Muslims lower than the Mongolians lead by Genghis Kahn who had torn cities into a pile of rubble.

    Racism? Mohammed PBUH literally dictated against it not once not twice but too many times that I fail to count. Not Islam’s problem that followers do not follow. Corruption? same case .. Antisemitism just tops it all LOL.. BTW, Quraish, Mohammed’s Tribe, are the descendants of Ismael son of Abraham.. oh wait which means Mohammed is a Semite!! yeah yeah yeah.. you mean against Judaism in particular. listen, get your naming right then we’ll argue because what happened in Medina would happen ANYWHERE in the world at that time or any time. There were treaties and they broke them. Two tribes were evacuated to Khaybar because the treaty breaking were not highly treacherous. The last one, the slaughtered (no point denying that) Banu Quraiza, were guilty for high treason at war time. Tell me one country in the world would pass that with less than capital punishment? Again, that was 1400 years ago and standards were different. Misogyny and Misanthropy? you really don’t know what you’re talking about. Search any where in the literature about one Muslim Man in early Islam that was any of those two distasteful descriptions and then I will start an argument. All scriptures tell us that Mohammed and his companions treated all children and females as their equals. Probably you’ll turn to polygamy now, before you go there remember that back then when men died in wars and had to travel leagues upon leagues for trade. Women were outnumbering men. And since adultery is prohibited in Islam polygamy was approved. Nowadays? I don’t see any reason for it and actually I had stopped a dear friend of mine from doing it.

    ISLAM is NOT what you see from Muslims today. For the last time what’s happening now is no where near real Islam. Nor the so called Salafist and Wahhabist are. They are only called that in a juridical sense (praying, fasting … etc). They do not relate to the real social Islamic structure. Mohammed Abduh, a famous scholar, said a century ago about western societies ” I see Islam but no Muslims. Whereas [in Muslims societies], here I see Muslims but no Islam”.

    All I can tell about you is that you’re deluded by the wrong sources and mixing things up. Call it Islam fairy tale or fantasy or whatever you like. At the very end, those are the things that I were taught as a Muslim NOT as a Saudi and I preach for even here in Saudi Arabia. I denounce whatever that’s universally wrong you see and will boldly call it unislamic. Maybe only one thing from the top of my head, Hijab, but to me it’s a personal choice and no one should be forced to do it.

    I find it insulting that you stereotype all Muslims. It should as insulting to any Muslim in the world as Germanophobia is to Germans or “antisemitism” is to Jews.

    Ever thought of looking to the positive side? in that Wikipedia link you posted just click on [show] next to timeline of religion and then Science and engineering in the Islamic world .. I wonder what argument you have for that.

    PS. I’m totally against discrimination against any race, gender … etc. I just don’t agree with the coinage of “antisemitism” I prefer to call it anti-Judaism.

  27. A'idah

    Amrush, I’ll respond to your points as I have time, because I am working, with men in a male dominated field and —gasp—unveiled, dressed in a western business suit that shows off my figure.😉

    I will say this however, either you have never read a scholarly history book or you are really, really stupid and can’t comprehend a proper history book or you are a typical, Muslim taqiyya artist (that means liar in any other language) claiming that everything Islam and Muslims did and do is just dandy and the rest of the world’s perceptions of the Islamic 1,400 year plague on humanity is just so much Islam bashing. “Oooh, but that’s not Islam,” is the claim; when the Qur’an and other Islamic texts, as well as Islamic jurisprudence clearly show that it is.

    The proof is in the pudding my dear and the Islamic pudding is rotten to the core, as evidenced by their failed states. States that started to fail within 400 years of Islam’s inception. It has little to do with religion and everything to do with politics and Islam’s political mandate to conquer the whole world.

    I need to go. My office mate wants to know why I am laughing so hard. You are a trip!

  28. Unnamed

    Don’t be a simpleton. So you work with men, whoop de whoop!

    Everyone’s dying of envy I’m sure.

    It seems the very basic concept that “Civilizational hegemony” or superiority is cyclical has evaded you.

    Was was the state of Europe I wonder between the Fall of Rome and the Renaissance period?

    Was it not just 100 years ago that bathing was considered unhealthy, that clean skin pours invited disease etc.

    You’d think that today in 2010 we’d have grown out of that HA-HA, I’m better than you juvenile attitudes by now.

    Societies/Civilisation climbs up and reaches a pinnacle and it will come down and fall wayward. That’s absoultely guaranteed 101%.

  29. Unnamed

    Oh, thanks for making me laugh as well A’idah with that taqiyya comment. The fact that it’s a Shiite fabrication that came about hundred of years after the Prophet’s death, which the vast majority of Sunni Muslims reject categorically should not stand in the way of misinformation, propaganda and outright naked slander.

    The Quran is categorically states those who stretch the truth, mislead others, cheat in their business dealings etc will face an unpleasant welcome in the next world.

  30. Yeah sure.. You have to do your work.. as much as I do. My female boss wants me to meet her half an hour too🙂. Just in case you notice discrepancies, I’m doing a summer internship.

    However, taqiya, or lies, is not in my propaganda. I’m a Sunni Muslim. But since you’ve labeled me a liar, stupid and also sub-contextually ignorant, I think this should go no where. I tried to build bridges but you only tear them down. Tried to explain somethings you seemed not to know but you always refuse them, dodge them or come up with not-so-accurate versions of facts that only suites your own way of thinking. So much for European enlightenment of the world. You’re either a troll who feeds on pissing off other people or really deluded you can’t pull yourself out.

    Oh, PS. I’ve read one book too many about history not only middle eastern but European, Japanese, Chinese and American too. I just need to read a book about Indian history to complete the set.

  31. I love this article FANTASTIC

  32. A'idah

    Amrush says: ”I’ve read one book too many about history not only middle eastern but European, Japanese, Chinese and American too. I just need to read a book about Indian history to complete the set.”

    You want ONE book on that most ancient civilization with its long history? That is very funny.😉

    You are not trying to “build bridges.” but rather insisting that your white-washed version of history is the correct one. Amrush, you appear to be a know-it-all kid who thinks that because he’s read a book or two in the few years that he’s attended university that this qualifies him for being educated. You are not yet educated! When you have lived a few more decades, have studied abroad in a top university,—not one Islamic university is in the top 200— read thousands of books, have worked in a solid career and have traveled the world, living in different places and among different peoples, respecting their customs and obeying their laws, then you might consider yourself educated. At that point you can compete with those of us who have done all of the above and then some.

    You are all about what the ulema tells you. Which is the Islamic sanitized version of history, that is not recognized in the world of scholars. When you learn to think for yourself, then get back to us your new-found knowledge.

    A very short list of Indian history books and articles that you should read. To learn what Islam did to the east Indians pick these up at Amazon or google.

    A Brief History of India – By Alain Danielou
    Story of Islamic Imperialism in India – By Sita Ram Goel
    History of British India – By Harold Horace Wilson
    The Wonder That Was India – By A L Basham
    India – Its Life and Thought – By John P Jones
    Heroic Hindu Resistance to Muslim Invaders (636 AD to 1206 AD) – By Sita Ram Goel
    Negationism in India: Concealing the record of Islam – By Koenraad Elst

    Sanitizing Temple Destruction by Islam – By Meenakshi Jain

    Dr. Anwar Shaikh (1928-2006) who later converted to Hinduism and took the name Aniruddha Gyan Shikha. He was a Pakistani-born author who lived in Cardiff for many years. He is best known for his many books on Islam. 

    “India is yet another major victim of Islam.”

    The day Muhammad bin Qasim, entered Sindh as a conqueror, must rank as the most ominous, odious and outrageous moment in the history of India, whose proud, pious and powerful traditions have been the torch-bearer of world civilisation. The Indians, used to enjoying the warmth of ahimsa, were stunned by the violence that the Arab raiders displayed in robbing the rich and seducing the indigenous damsels. Yet the irony was that they did all this in the name of the Most Compassionate and Just Allah, who counts these felonies as acts of fairness when they are committed to torture the unbelievers.”

    “India was a prosperous, peaceful and proud country, which has not only been reduced to extreme poverty and ignorance by the Muslim predators and the Islamic rule, but has also been fragmented into geographical and political units.” 

    “Most Muslims think of Bharat not as their Motherland but Dar-ul-Harb = battlefield, where people murder, plunder and deceive out of hatred and greed. It is totally false to say that Islam is the ambassador of international brotherhood.”
    _________

    When you read about Islam, do try to read scholarly works and not the sanitized versions by Muslims who wish to hide the horrors visited upon the conquered peoples by their “complete way of life.”

    Plenty of Muslims come to this blog and try to justify the discrimination and gender apartheid in Saudi Arabia. The world and international human rights organizations is not buying it!

  33. Unnamed

    There you go again with that ‘justification’ nonsense.

    Pray tell whose engaged in imperial conquests in Iraq and Afghanistan today?

    Who installed a Zionist regime in the Middle East and uprooted millions from their land?

    Whose engaged in neo-Imperialistic domination of the Third World?

    The Colonization of Africa, Latin America, and Asia is not ancient history.

    With that in mind you think you have a leg to stand on when pointing out Imperialistic conquests from 800 years ago AT LEAST?

    If there’s one person who truly understood the hypocritical, dualistic Dichotomy – the schizophrenia of some Westerners in other words, it was Malcolm X.

    They preach freedom whilst supporting tyrants. They talk about conquests 1000 years ago, whilst being engaged in that act today – yet have the temerity to preach to others.

    The funniest thing is this simpleton who mentions India when the British raped that country, what, oh say, until 1947.

    The day European (Portuguese and later British) forces conquered India must rank as the most ominous, odious and outrageous moment in the history of India, whose proud, pious and powerful traditions have been the torch-bearer of world civilisation.

  34. A'idah

    “Imperial conquest” typically means that the conquerors get something out of their colony. The U. S. had NO colonies! Iraq and Afghanistan are costing the U. S. trillions $$. Our people are being maimed and dying to protect ungrateful believers. In the meantime, many other countries such as China have gotten oil and mineral contracts in both countries, while the U. S. continues to pay and pay with blood and treasure.

    Fortunately, today is the day for the combat troops to LEAVE! All that are left are about 50,000 trainers.

    ”Suicide bombs, corruption and sectarianism undermine confidence as Operation Iraqi Freedom ends” http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/19/iraqi-security-us-troops-pullout

    The bet is that Islamic sectarian violence will increase in Iraq. The U. S. is not blowing up infrastructure and sending suicide bombers, but Muslims are.

    Both, Iraq and Afghanistan, have requested that U. S. troops stay, because, they are “not ready” to protect their own countrymen. It is really tough to train illiterates and nut-jobs who hate their fellow believers because they are not the “right” sort of Muslim.

    Of course, the failed Islamic states is all the fault of the Zionists. Ever hear of the Balfour Declaration? About a 500K Palestinians left on the urging of their Arab “brothers,” who promised to slaughter the Israelis. NOT! Those brothers later threw the Palestinians out of their countries.

    At least half a million Jews were also expelled from Islamic lands without compensation. How about an even-Steven swap?

    While I support the right of Israel to exist, I do not support giving either the Israelis or the Palestinians any aid until they come to the peace table. Unfortunately, there is the little issue of the Hamas charter.

    ”neo-Imperialistic domination of the Third World?”

    Who? Because it certainly is NOT the U. S. or the West. We GIVE aid, and get very little in return. Where are the Muslim nations to help their “brothers in Islam”? Thus far, very few have signed on to help Pakistan and the pledged sums are paltry.

    Ah, yes, the “Great Satan” is always good enough when the failed Islamic states have their hands out. Then, they will use the aid money to support terror.

    ”With that in mind you think you have a leg to stand on when pointing out Imperialistic conquests from 800 years ago AT LEAST?”

    The kid wanted a book recommendation. He (and you) should learn about the genocide perpetrated in India. It is history that Islam tries to deny. Then you could read about the Armenian genocide as well, that the Turks continue to deny. There are plenty of others.

    ”They preach freedom whilst supporting tyrants.”

    Muslims seem to need tyrants to keep them from slaughtering each other. We should have left Saddam in power. BTW, where was the ummah during Saddam’s reign? Where were they when Egypt occupied Gaza or the 30 year occupation of Lebanon by Syria? How about Darfur or Sudan or Somalia? Where are the Muslims to keep other Muslims from slaughtering innocents in the name of Allah?

    No one denies British imperialism. However, the Brits left the rule of law as well as great educational and bureaucratic institutions; that is why India is the world’s largest democracy today. Why, they even speak the queen’s English. Most of those books that I recommended were written by Indian scholars.

    Conversely, most everywhere that Islam resides is a failed state—including “dynamic” places like Kuwait or Egypt. One thousand years of nihilistic indolism is not enough.

    The West should leave all Islamic lands and shut the door behind on the way out. Let the believers vote for the Muslim Brotherhood and bring in a Taliban like government in every failed Muslim state. There will be one “democratic” vote and never another.

    So, stop being a parasite sucking the kuffur dry. Stop using anything produced by the hated infidel world and let Allah provide. See how that works for you.

    The Saudis produce some really great dates.😉

    • Alicia

      A’idah,
      I am with you on scholars that whitewash islamic history into a “do no wrong” picture book (I get into too many arguments with others about the fact that islamic empires continued with slavery well after the inception of islam) but reading this post I think you are guilty of the same thing in favor of western culture. Look again at the history of US military involvement in Central America, Cuba, and other small countries around the world. It may not be the traditional style of colonization but we are certainly overly involved in other people’s business for the profit of some Americans. You claim that we do not benefit, and I will assume, hopefully not incorrectly, that you are a middle class American like myself, you are correct that we are not benefiting. However, that doesn’t mean some American citizens are not benefiting. The question is who.

  35. Unnamed

    Ai’dah says:

    “Who? Because it certainly is NOT the U. S. or the West. We GIVE aid, and get very little in return.”

    In relation to supporting Mubarak, Sadat before his assassination, the Shah of Iran, General Musharraf, the Al-Saud family. Saddam Hussein beforehand etc etc….

    How old are you? 5 maybe?

    The naivety just beggars belief.

  36. Unnamed

    This part really made me laugh out loud.

    “Fortunately, today is the day for the combat troops to LEAVE! All that are left are about 50,000 trainers. ”

    That’s comic Gold, not even Chappelle, Carlin (you name it) could come up with something like this.

    And this:

    “Iraq and Afghanistan are costing the U. S. trillions $$. Our people are being maimed and dying to protect ungrateful believers.”

    Another unbelievably hilarious statement. I’m certain that Iraqi’s are greatful to have a foreign army invade their country and create a vacuum for anarchy to flourish.

  37. A'idah

    You are a classic, Unnamed.

    Blaming the fact that the believers are slaughtering each other on the “invaders,” is so typical.

    I remember one guy joyfully screaming at the “invading” troops: “Democracy, whiskey, sexy.” Personal responsibility didn’t seem to come into the equation.

    So, how come the Iraqis didn’t just get up and go back to work the day after they were freed of Saddam? Why didn’t they put their backs into building up their nation with democracy instead of destroying it with looting and sectarian violence? Unless, of course they are a nation of criminals and Saddam was keeping them in check?

    To reiterate, Saddam should have been left in place! I have not met a person yet, in the West who does not believe that. Why even many of the radical-right have come to acknowledge that. The ummah let him rule for over 30 years, why not a few more? The west should have let Saddam keep Kuwait after he invaded it as well. After all, regardless of who is the tyrant, they have to sell the oil because they are not producing much else to feed their people. The war was not worth one Western life, much less over 4,000.

    The respectful, “there is no compulsion in religion” ummah is letting the believers destroy many pre-Islamic and even Islamic historic places in KSA, in Iran, in Egypt, in Africa, etc. The ummah let the Taliban destroy the Buddhas of Bamiyan. World heritage sites. Such tolerance!

    Can you imagine what they would do to say, the great art of Italy that Eman loves? Some whacked out true believer would no doubt take a hammer to The David just as was done to ancient Egyptian art in a museum in Cairo recently. Currently, the believers are merely desecrating churches with urine and feces in Italy. Think I am kidding? My family and I have watched them pi$$ on churches in broad daylight. They turn around with hateful stares and say, “I know my rights!” Newspapers regularly have articles about baptismals being used as latrines. Of course, that is typical; historical records show that Muslims regularly desecrated the places of worship of the infidel, even those of the “people of the book.”

    Let the believers all democratically vote their tyrants out. They will vote in bigger, Islamic tyrants. The Palestinians did that. Now they have Hammas and they are being Islamically abused.

    Of course, KSA is its own problem. They have a self appointed royal ruler; a real reformer. Better the Devil you know.

    You love comedy so much, here are a few more for you:

    U.N. watchdog grills Saudi Arabia on women’s rights

    Saudi women in the Kingdom’s 50 °C temperatures dressed head-to-toe in heat adsorbing black.

    GENEVA-…Heisoo Shin, another of the 23 independent experts on the panel, said that patriarchal rules “governed virtually every aspect of a woman’s life” in Saudi Arabia.

    “Without a man’s consent, a woman cannot study or get health service, work, marry, conduct business or even get an ambulance service in an emergency,” she said.

    Riyadh says there is “no discrimination against women in the laws of the Kingdom.”

    And Zeid Bin Abdul Mushin Al Hussein, vice president of the Saudi Human Rights Commission, told the experts: “Human rights in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are based on Sharia law.”

    “Islamic principles reinforce human rights,” he said.

    http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/printArticle.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=196410&version=1&template_id=37&parent_id=17

    FUNNY!

    Palestinians say Arab states cutting aid http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article107082.ece

    Why many Pakistani-Americans aren’t sending flood donations home http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0818/Why-many-Pakistani-Americans-aren-t-sending-flood-donations-home

    Indeed, Islamic life is hysterical!

    So, when will you give up your infidel life-style and head for dar al Islam? KSA and other Gulf states welcome expats in both the slave and technical classes.

  38. Aamir

    Saudi court mulls verdict to cut defendant’s spine

    He caused paralysis to another man during a fight and the victim is insisting that he should suffer the same injury

    “King Khaled Hospital is of the opinion that it is possible to cut the spinal cord and cause paralysis medically through specialist centres,” he said.

    http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/saudi-court-mulls-verdict-to-cut-defendant-s-spine-2010-08-19-1.281080

    They want physicians to sever this man’s spine? Physicians?

    • Aamir–physicians are called upon in a number of countries to do a variety of things which basically breach “first do know harm” ie the basic rule of medical ethics.

      In all countries where there is torture there are a physicians advising how much more the tortured can take, and patching them up to take more. In war military physicians make sure they do their best to return soldiers to the frontline whether they are fully physically recovered, and mentally stable enough to return or not.

      Where there is the death penalty, physicians assess that the penalized is dead. If anesthesia is used, physicians do the dosing. If the job is incomplete they may inject with potassium to stop the heart.

      In places with high medical ethics standards, eg adhering to the Nuremberg standards (ie the post WW II standards–to correct the barbarities perpetrated by the Nazi and the Japanese physicians on POWs and especially persons of inferior races in both the European and the Pacific theatres) physicians assess the mental competence of the person to receive the death penalty to make sure they are able to give their informed consent to be put to death (eg in the US).

      So I am as disapproving of this new twist on Talionic Law, but maybe not as shocked that physicians are being asked to do it. Threatening to do worse to a physician’s family usually gets compliance from a physician in other countries.

      There is even an autobiography written by a Jewish physician who volunteered, nay insisted, on being a Nazi doctor in the death camps, to spare himself and his family.

      So if the judge rules on this, some neurosurgeon or reasonable facsimile thereof, will be found who will be “persuaded” that justice is to be served in this manner.

      I really hope justice finds a different solution.

  39. Thank you for the books, I’ll make sure I read two or three.🙂 ..

    Dates? yeah.. not only cursed oil ..😉 ..

  40. A'idah

    You are welcome, Amrush. Do try to read more than one book, by both Indian and Western scholars, to round things out.

    From one geek to another, remember to apply Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle to the “real,” non-quantum world: The way things look, depends on your view point. Where you are standing makes all the difference. Do make sure that you stand in many places throughout your life to observe the view.

    Perception and memory is always reality from the perspective of living creatures, in particular humans. In real life, perception is always measured by memory—thus, historical entanglements.😉

    Here is something else for you to read: http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nphys1734.html

    Dates. . .great stuff. Used to keep the Beduins alive. Too many make one fat.

    Other than geekiness, we have another thing in common Amrush, photography. If you want a really super, still affordable, digicam, try a Nikon D300s with Lightroom of course.

    Here’s one of my favorite photo learning sites: http://digital-photography-school.com/

    • DPS is one of my favorite photography sites .. D300😥 .. I WAAAANT .. by the time I can afford it Nikon will have a better camera. haha.. My D80 was a gift from my parents🙂

      Glad you dropped by my long lost blog.. Even happier we found a common ground in between🙂

      • A'idah

        @ Amrush, I missed your reply because of the convoluted way this site positions posts. One has to go through a whole thread every time. I don’t always have the time for that. Eman said that she has no control over that problem.

        Amrush says: DPS is one of my favorite photography sites .. D300😥 .. I WAAAANT .. by the time I can afford it Nikon will have a better camera. haha.. My D80 was a gift from my parents
        Glad you dropped by my long lost blog.. Even happier we found a common ground in between ”

        Nice gift!

        Isn’t the DPS site just fantastic? You learn so much from the talented people on there.
        I often take one of their “assignments.”

        Currently, with my all consuming photo hobby I’m into producing a number of travel photo books. One is already out and has been very well received.

        The D300 series is still on top of the heap. While “better” pro-sumer cameras will surely come out, you might consider a used one. The Nikon D80 supports only compressed NEFs (RAW files). That means some loss of data because of lossy compression. It doesn’t have a mirror lockup. No sensor cleaner either, so you get dust spots. I used to own a D70 which at the time was great; but the difference in photo quality from the D300 is exponential.

        Do you know about “Digital Camera Review”? http://www.dpreview.com/

        It is the best digicam review site on the net. They have forums too, but not nearly as good as DPS.

        Check out any camera, new or old that you are considering purchasing. Here’s the D300s review:
        http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300s/default.asp

        It’s a very extensive review with few cons. Check out the comparison photos. Unless you need video, I would purchase a used D300 since the (s) doesn’t have many improvements except so-so video.

        I’m in the market for a couple of new lenses. $$$ The great thing about Nikons is that one can use all old lenses, including film lenses. So, all you have to purchase every few years or so is a new body.😀

        What software do you use for post-shoot processing?

  41. A'idah

    Come now, Alicia, western women in the middle ages were not “veiled” nor were the Puritans, certainly not in the Islamic sense. The headgear was one of current fashion. The wedding veil a symbol of purity. No women were placed into sacks. There was no claim that the hair of women “emitted rays” that drove men to commit sin—albeit great hair is very seductive. Of course, one might consider the Victorian corset a “prison.” However, these are meant to enhance and show off the female figure, not to hide it. Corsets are back you know, because people are so fat.😉

    Women have always worked along side men on farms, in shops, later in factories and offices in the west and indeed in most of the world. Wealthy women ran estates. There was/is no gender separation of the sexes as there is in the Islamic world. Don’t believe it? Then go to an art museum. Men and women are always seen together in society as far back as the ancient Egyptians and beyond.

    Of course, “decent” women were chaperoned. However, that is nothing like having a mahram. Women were often educated at home as were men. They most certainly rode horses, traveled by themselves, had adventures without being beaten or killed. Today, instead of using a chaperone, boys and girls “date” in groups. Parents, friends and school teachers chaperone the parties of young people. Universities have house parents.

    Your aunt is hardly an example of most western women. If she belonged to some Christian fundamentalist sect, that was her choice. She was not forced into it by the laws of the land. She would not have been threatened with execution or imprisonment if she left her church.

    Women most certainly could hold property and they often had careers. I have plenty of female ancestors who did so, both in Europe and the U. S. It all depended on how the marriage contract was written as to how much freedom a woman had.

    Being a nun took away all rights of women. They became “brides” of Christ and literal servants of the Church, which they still are today, sans habit. Many, however, have rebelled in recent years. The RCC finds it difficult to get either nuns or priests because, it is an entirely unnatural way of life.

    I said that western women were chattel, but they were still treated much better than Muslim women ever were, going back as far as Rome, where women had a great deal of freedom and power. I recall studying that while in university and thought, if I had to pick a period of history in which to have been a woman Rome or Elizabethan England might have been just the place. Elizabethan women had incredible personal freedom. It was very much recognized by that era that women were much more sexually powerful than men and their freedoms reflected that. Read the plays of Shakespeare sometime and note all the bawdy references. The big concern was always one of paternity. Thus, women had to be “virtuous” in order to assure the males in society that the children they were supporting were actually, genetically theirs. Today, DNA can prove who the father is and birth control makes unwanted pregnancy a thing of the past. Western women have careers and can support themselves as well as their children. Therefore, many choose not to marry. Better no husband than a bad one.

    The issue is one of the times. Muslims were in earth for the last millennia with the rest of humanity. Yet, as “advanced” as they claim to have been, they have completely let the Reformation, Renaissance and Enlightenment eras pass them by. They have chosen to remain in the dark ages. One does have to wonder why?

    What exactly do Muslim males gain from being backward and keeping half of the population imprisoned? With all the articles written by Muslims about this backwardness, it appears that many are who are ashamed of it. So, why continue clinging to something that stopped working well over 1,000 years ago? The result has been failed states and abject poverty. Even the most “liberal” of Islamic states, such as Turkey, are still far behind the developed world.

    That is nothing to crow about.

    • Might I add that the situation here in Arabia was much better in “societal structure” sense than now?

      I mean all my grandparents say that life was truly different and, although females covered their heads, nothing else was required.. Mixing was, and still is, the norm in most of the families. At least in Hijaz (western regions). I don’t know about Najd and other parts of Saudi.

  42. A'idah

    @Alicia: It’s weird how this blog places posts into less than chronological order.

    Eman?

    ”we are certainly overly involved in other people’s business for the profit of some Americans.”

    I have never denied that, Alicia. I am against such involvement and always have been. I am the first to point out the faults of the U. S. and the west. Still, people are not risking their lives by the millions to immigrate to dar al Islam or Africa or S. America. They all want to come to the hated West.

    I wrote extensively against both wars. However, this blog is about Saudi Arabia and by extension, Islam, which in my opinion is so much worse than anything else on earth, with the possible exception of places like Somalia, where there is only anarchy.

    ”I will assume, hopefully not incorrectly, that you are a middle class American like myself, you are correct that we are not benefiting. However, that doesn’t mean some American citizens are not benefiting. The question is who.”

    Yep, middle class, professional who is sick and tired of seeing our tax dollars go to people who don’t appreciate and hate us for it. My grandfather used to say, “People never value anything that is free.” He charged a great deal of money for his expert advice. The Arabs are famous for only valuing anything if it has a HUGE price tag. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    The military, industrial, congressional complex is certainly benefitting. The rest of us merely pay taxes. People are realizing that the war machine is what is breaking the bank and the backs of taxpayers. We should be investing in securing our borders, points of entry, alternative fuels, education, infrastructure, etc. instead of dumping plane loads of cash into Islamic lands where it disappears down the black-corruption-hole. Fear of the money not reaching those for whom it is intended is causing donors to withhold aid for the Pakistan flood disaster.

    The point that I was trying to make is that “everyone” knows that the Iraq and Afghanistan adventures have cost the U. S. and the coalition plenty in both blood and treasure, never mind good will. We have gained, absolutely nothing! There will be no democracy in either nation because the majority of the people do not want it and most of all, because Islam is incompatible with democracy, since no law can be above that of their Allah. Take a look at “democratic” Turkey that is moving ever more into the Islamist camp.

    Whether we leave yesterday, today, tomorrow or a hundred years from now—it will make absolutely no difference. NONE! Don’t forget, Osama bin Laden vowed to break the U. S. with these wars. His promise is coming true.

    The most idiotic thing that the people in power have said recently is that “If things don’t work out in Afghanistan by next year, we will leave.” They know damned well things will never work out. If they do not, then they need to read a few history books. Why not leave now and save blood, treasure and use those for our own people? They tell us that we “can’t afford” health care, infrastructure repair, better schools, etc. but, we can afford all of that in lands where the people destroy whatever we build up for them?

    There are a number of books out now that analyze why foreign aid as it has been traditionally given does not work. I have said that for years. Note that the Chinese don’t give very much, but they make sure that they get raw materials, oil and mineral contracts. While they let us fight for them. It might be interesting to see the ummah go up against the Chinese. The populations are about equal.

    The bottom line for me and everyone whom I know is as always, let Muslims fix their own problems and let us clean up our own backyard. That would be whole lot less expensive than continuing to throw good (borrowed) money after bad. It’s time for the oil rich Arabs to step up to the plate. Unfortunately, they are not much into helping out their brothers in Islam. They prefer to go shopping.😉

    OK /rant

    Since I don’t have a maid, I must now leave my office and see to the kitchen.😉

    We are still waiting for someone to tell us what is positive in KSA. Anyone?

    • I have no control over how comments are posted. The only thing I can control is whether they appear at all or not.

    • Alicia

      I don’t have a maid either so I’ll try to keep it short! I empathize with much of your position but I think your anger is misplaced. I hope that you will continue to investigate and learn about Islam and Middle Eastern people and about global politics and that as you grow in knowledge you will change your mind about some things. I’ll make just a few points: Osama Bin Laden cannot ruin us with war. Only we can do that. They blew up a building. We were not carpet bombed or subjected to “shock and awe” nor has our land been covered in white phosphorus or had our president hanged. We had a choice to respond differently to 9/11 and we did not. Our government refuses to raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for these wars. In the past, the wealthy have had to pay up to 90% of their income to pay for wars. Now we believe it is fair to put the burden on the middle (you pay) and lower classes (you fight). Around the world, the poor are being asked to sacrifice for the benefit of the rich. As one Iraqi put it: “what has democracy given us? beer.” Poor arabs suffer just as much as poor americans from this kind of political switcharoo. My point is that we can’t blame other people’s for the poor choices our government makes. If we are a democracy, then we have to blame ourselves because we elected them. If we think we have no control over our elected officials then we have to admit democracy isn’t the issue and money is. Which brings me to my second point (this isn’t very short, is it?). Is islam compatible with democracy? The first Caliphs were all elected. Though there are some wonderful stories about the poor complaining to the fact that it appears it was the wealthy who did all the electing (sound familiar?). Any democracy can be hijacked, that’s the weakness of democracy; Hitler was democratically elected. That one follows God does not mean one cannot elect leaders to enforce those laws or apportion taxes for the public good etc. As much as the mullahs like to the Quran and the sunnah says everything about how to order human affairs, traffic laws are not mentioned! Also, an important fighting point between Shia and Sunni is that some Shia claim to have a divine right to authority through genetic relations and the sunni deny this, instead demanding democratic governance. Finally, Muslims are not coming to the west to flee islam. They are fleeing war and dictatorships that are orchestrated by the West, in cahoots with the powers that be in their region. while we may have cultural differences that are not going to be easily resolved, your average Arab or average muslim (Saudi does not represent all muslims, though their government may want to) is not your enemy. Your enemy is the same enemy of the Quran: the wealthy hypocrites who say they are with you but conspire against you behind your back to increase their riches at your expense.

  43. Unnamed

    Ai’dah:

    Spread the hate! Don’t you stop now.

  44. Unnamed

    Oh, let’s see if a foreign army invades America (under any pretext) and disband the military and Police services – if anarchy takes a hold.

    I’d bet my bottom dollar it would, especially with large sections of the population already armed to the teeth!😉

    I’ll refrain from reminding you (again!!) of your simpleton outlook, but why do we have a Police force, a military etc in EVERY country in the world?

    Without Law & Order, anarchy takes a hold. Any country in the world would be in chaos if they experienced Operation Shock & Owe, it’s not a unique trait for Muslims, sadly.

  45. A'idah

    ”Unnamed says: ”Oh, let’s see if a foreign army invades America (under any pretext) and disband the military and Police services – if anarchy takes a hold.”

    Ah, clearly you agree that Saddam should have been left in place. Glad that we’ve gotten that settled.

    There is no need for a foreign army to invade the U. S. since it is the beacon of freedom and democracy worldwide. No one is risking their lives to immigrate to ANY Islamic land. People do risk their lives to come to the West.

    I have told you over and over again that I was against the invasion of Iraq and even the war in Afghanistan. However, I do not believe that it is the fault of anyone but the Iraqis and Afghans that they have sectarian violence. The U. S. has been protecting them from each other. Now that the Americans are leaving and it’s an Iraqi responsibility they will simply have to manage. All too many are already yammering, that the U. S. is “leaving too soon,” but, they don’t really want the “occupiers” there.

    Ya can’t have it both ways.

    The fact remains that it is Muslims who are perpetrating violence. Where are all the people who were in Saddam’s army who use to keep the rabble in line? They were very well trained.

    As for the U. S.— First of all, America is a nation of laws. People in the U. S. don’t even cross the street on a red light. Compared to dar al Islam, the America and the rest of the west is very safe, especially for women and people of different ethnicities, sexual orientations and faiths. Every nation has its criminals, but nowhere in the whole, wide world are people slaughtering each other as Muslims do every day of the week in Islamic lands.There is no “imperial U. S. occupation” anywhere else. So, how do you explain the DAILY Muslim on Muslim carnage everywhere else?

    Hate?

    I believe in democracy, pluralism, the rule of law, equality and opportunity for all regardless of race, gender, ethnicity or religion. I object to my tax dollars being used to give anyone freedom and democracy who does not want it and who cannot appreciate it because their so-called faith is one of discrimination and oppression—and they like it. You call that “hate.”

    You believe in Islamic supremacy as well as the subjugation and the oppression of women including non-Muslims—just as the Qur’an mandates that you, a true believer should do. You think that Islamic violence, persecutions of people of other faiths, abductions, forced conversions, rapes, stonings, maimings, acid throwings, beheadings and any sort of violence to further the “one true faith” are just dandy. It’s Allah’s law just as Muhammad applied it 1,400 years ago and simply cannot be wrong. After all, Islam is the final solution.

    See, it just depends on where you are standing as to what your point of view is. Many people do not believe that Islam is a religion at all, but rather a totalitarian, fascistic, political system to subjugate the whole of humanity under the boot of Islam.

    East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. That is why Muslim should stay in 7th century dar al Islam and live happily ever after. The rest of humanity will prosper in the 21st century.

    So, have you given up your western life-style yet since you HATE everything about the infidel world?

    • Alicia

      Aidah,
      I can’t be with you when you say things that are obviously untrue. Americans only cross the street when the light is green?? You must live in the same place Judge Judy lives ’cause it sure ain’t Detroit!!! (She’s never heard of the police not coming when you call them for an active B&E, sounds like you haven’t either.)

      You are incorrect that people don’t immigrate to muslim lands. They do. Some are westerners. And some risk their lives to do so. You’re thinking of Americans, perhaps, who don’t usually have to risk their lives for anything but Christmas shopping (forgive my snarkiness? Can I even say that if I don’t delete it?). But it seems reasonable to assume the people who immigrate from a war torn muslim country to another peaceful one do.

      You asked earlier if there was anything good about KSA: less murder! You can’t point to countries in a civil war, ignore those that are stable to prove your point. Jordan is also a stable muslim country. Iraq was a stable country….and just out of curiosity, how do you defend taking Saddam out of office by force while being against the war whose purpose it was to take Saddam out of office by force?? Why is that not a contradiction?
      oh. and our forces disbanded the army that kept order in Iraq. We also tried to force them to write in their constitution that US forces could invade anytime we saw fit. what news have you been watching? And where are you getting your islam from (don’t spread it!)? There is an important verse in the Quran that refers to those who twist God’s word to suit their own purposes but those who take the best of the Quran are the ones on true guidance. Just because someone claims to be acting islamically doesn’t make it so.

  46. A'idah

    Sorry about the typos and the BF. I’m on my way out.😉

  47. Unnamed

    Ai’dah, you simpleton.

    I’m not in a position to keep or remove Saddam (before he was hanged) that was a decision for Iraqi’s to make.

    Two things count in the world: Money & Power.

    Not religion, not democracy etc……

    People are immigrating to the West because the loot of the World is concentrated in this region and they want a piece of it.

    When the Islamic civilisation was at it height, people immigrated to Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus, Cordoba etc….

    When the West’s economy goes down south (which it will) people will want to migrate to Asia, China etc and partake in their new found prosperity, Brazil and Africa too, that’s the new emerging economic powerhouses.

    I’ll see you in ‘Third World’ in 20 years.😉

    PS: I don’t “hate” anything, not the West or east but I’m slightly annoyed by simpleton Internet Warriors who bark loudly and say nothing worthwhile except regurgitating some hateful bile.

    I’m a human being, a citizen of Earth. Not solely a Muslim, not a Westerner, not Italian. I reject those divisive labels, I’m just another creation roaming this planet with the intention of getting along with everyone else. Ciao!

  48. Unnamed

    America is a beacon of democracy etc? Hah!

    America has toppled 30, I repeat 30 governments supported by their people since the Second World War. From Iran to Chile, Nicaragua and the list goes on.

    I don’t care about America’s internal politics, that’s their business. But in following their ‘national interests’ America has inflicted untold damage in all four corners of the world.

    More than Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Anarchism, any Ism, bar Communism.

  49. Issam

    This A’idah character is one of the most ignorant, arrogant and hate-filled people I have come across. Her ignorance of World religions and the history of Europe and the Middle East is astonishing yet she poses herself as Mrs. Know it all! And she talks about books? All the books that she cited are garbage and not printed by any world class press. In fact most of them were written by anti-Muslim fascists, like her. I can cite tens of scholarly and respectable books from world class Publishers by non-Muslim authors on the Muslim civilization and contributions of the Middle Ages. But talking to such a stonewall is a waste of time. But let me say one more thing, every single point, and I mean every single point, that she made about Islam, Christianity, the Muslim contributions to science and philosophy, the history of Europe and the Middle East were wrong, and to show this point by point would take several and moreover it is not worth it since we are dealing with a little hate-filled bigot in here.

    Regards,

    • Alicia

      Issam,
      While it isn’t polite to talk about people in the third person and Aidah can correct me and hopefully forgive me if I overstep, please keep in mind that it is frustrating to be an American right now. Our politicians and media are lying to us and stirring up hatred among us in order to hide their own ineptitudes and theft of our tax dollars. There are millions to be made in spreading disinformation and non to be made in spreading truth. We are genuinely fearful of our future as those in charge appear to not care and no amount of electing has done us any good for decades. Well educated people who lead solid middle class lives are being forced into poverty and homelessness while our tax dollars bail out the wealthy. Our children are being turned into soldiers for reasons we cannot fathom. The Bush years really drove home how powerless we as citizens are. We are supposed to be the most free (if liquor and porn is what you want I guess we are) but we are in reality some of the most trapped people on earth. Aidah may disagree with me, but free people are not as angry as she is. She as good reason to be angry, but not at who she is angry at.

  50. Leonard

    Thus far the “Islam is superior to everything ever” peanut gallery has not proven a single point. Come on guys, let’s have some documented evidence of Islam’s greatness. Show everyone, unequivocally that Muslims contributed more to civilizations than non muslims and especially those filthy Jews. You don’t want some western, inferior female to win this do you?

    Also, can you guys tell everyone what the world would be like without the horrible U. S., that according to muslims is responsible for every ill in the world.

    • Issam

      1. Nobody is claiming that “Islam is superior to everything else” when it comes to science and philosophy. It is fascists like you and that retard A’idah who are claiming that “Islam is inferior to everything else”. No sane person is buying that.

      2. You want some documented evidence of Muslim science and philosophy greatness? How about you read this for a start? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists
      Of course you are going to reply, just like the other fascist retard, that most of those scientists and philosophers were of “the conquered peoples” and hence should not count! But this is a non-arguemnt. The fact remains that these scientists and philsophers were religious Muslims, some of them even defended the existence of God and wrote commentaries on the Quran, who lived a couple of centuries after the birth of Islam. The other fact that you and the fascist A’idah ignore or are ignorant about is that prior to Islam, no record of a Persian, North African or Andalucian scientist exists, at least for the 1000 years prior to Islam. And thus, the civilizational blossom of the Middle Ages in the Middle East should be attributed to Islam.

      3. Again, nobody is saying that Muslims contributed more to civilizations than non-Muslims or those “filthy Jews” (Why single out Jews and describe them as “filthy”? That was a pathetic attempt from you). We are just not bothering with fascists who lump Muslims and their faith with everything bad in the world. Seriously why should we bother with fascists who strive to show that Muslims are inferior to everybody else? We just let them roll in their ignorance and arrogance, but no sane person is buying all the hate that they preach in here.

      4. Your comment “some western, inferior female” shows your misogyny and supremacism. We do not discriminate between men and women here.

      5. Without a Republican America the world would be a much safer place.

      Regards,

  51. Unnamed

    That’s not the case at all here.

    I’m yet to see a proper argument for Islam’s superiority, or an attempt at once. I thought dick-measuring contests was for teenagers, we’re adults here I assume?

    Our stance is that this ‘superiority’ is a figment of the imagination, depending on who’s making the case.

    I accept the plurality that exists in this world. Nobody is superior to the next guy and everyone should focus on his/her own issues.

    As they say in Russia: It’s easy to voyeur into your neighbour’s home and comment on messy living room without having put yours in order.

    • Issam

      1. 1. Nobody is claiming that “Islam’s superiority” when it comes to science and philosophy. Both Muslims and non-Muslims made great contributions to the human civilization. It is fascists on here like the retards Leonard and A’idah who are claiming that “Islam is inferior to everything else in every way”. No sane person is buying that.

      2. You want a proper argument of Muslim science and philosophy greatness? How about you read this for a start? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists

      3. I agree that nobody is superior to the next guy and everyone should focus on his/her own issues. Go tell that to the fascists on here.

      The fact remains that Muslims made huge contributions to science and philosophy. There is an abundance of literature on this by non-Muslim authors from world class publishing houses. The other fact is that Saudi Arabia is not Islam, and that Muslims do watch the superb shows available such as great music, theater, dance, art, science, literature, history, travel, cooking, crafts, lectures on every subject, and it is not the non-Muslims who do most of the work like some ignorant on here claim.

      Regards,

      • Alicia

        Issam,
        I am assuming you are a muslim. We should not call other people names. We should take what is true as true, from wherever it is, and correct that which is false.

  52. Leonard

    Yeah, I know just what you mean, dude. Minding your own business is a really cool thing.

    I sure do wish that the Saudis would stop spending millions sending their wahab imams into the world to spread fundamentalist islam. I also wish that Iran, Yemen, Pakistan and all those othr islamic failed states would stop supporting terrorism. I really wish that muslims would stop with the suicide jihad & start concentrating on their economies. True, they mostly kill each other and nobody seems to care about that, least of all other muslims, but still, it’s really bad for their holier than thou image.

    I also wish that they would stop taking aid from those stupid enough to give it and then diverting it to support terror. See, the problem that many people have iz that Islam seems to have been at war with the world ever since old Mo was fighting the ancient Arab tribes. after the dude died, his followers made war on lots of people, killed the men, made slaves of the women & kdis. Many people remember that the modern attacks started in 1979, unless of course you count those by the Palestinians back in 1919 and the Arab support of the Nazis. Seems like certain muslims were all for the final solution. Kinda like today. I watched demostrations where muslims held up signs that said, “Hitler should have finished the job.” Nice!

    Now, you both claim that everyone is equal, sure, in a democratic system everyone is equal under the law, unlike in muslim countries where they discriminate against the non muslims, won’t let them worship their own religions. According to the news they even pay them less. The problem is that islam claims that muslims are better than anyone else, right there in the koran. Lots of people have read that. Now, that does not sit well with the rest of us. The other thing is that western civilization has brought the best life that humans have ever had in history, muslims have not done much to improve it. they just use our stuff. So yeh, every human is equal, but every civilization is not. I think someone said that nothing much has happened in the muslim world for about a thousand years. so, how come?

    I think I’m with Aidah here. These folks should stop using anything that comes from the nonmuslim world, because, see islamic stuff is so much better. It’s been superior forever, ‘cause, like everything is islamic.😉

    You dudes need to prove your assertions instead of calling people names. Come to think of it, muslims do that a lot when they don’t have any evidence of their superiority. some iranian official called Condi Rice a jungle creature. Ambassador Rahimi called the brits “a bunch of idiots ruled by mafia.” Amidinajob, the dude with the pig eyes, is famous for name calling, he said the brits were a “bunch of politically retarded people,” last week i think.

    Fascism? Dude, islam was the first fascism. “Mein Kampf” is a best seller all over the islam world. Everybody watches everyone else, no individualism, no criticizing the governmetns. It’s racist and anti womyn. the cult of Mo worship. They blame others for their problems. they are militaristic. They even made the Jews wear a piece of yellow cloth in spain. That’s where Nazis got the idea of the yellow star. Look up fascism and see the comparison. Islamofascism is the right term.

    Oh, about the other comparisons. I read a few articles that said Arab, especially Saudi women complain all the time what lousy lovers their men are. Guess that must be why they have to trade the old wife in and get a new, clueless one until that one wises up.

    So, guys, what is ur beef with the truth? I mean, the facts are there. The statistics don’t lie. the koran verses are there for anyone to read. Most islam states are failures. when r u guys gonna counter with your own facts instead of name calling rants?

  53. Unnamed

    This Leonard guy is funny.😀

  54. I kindly request everyone to refrain from name-calling. We can have a passionate yet civilized debate and come out of it simply agreeing to disagree but with a slightly more open mind about the other side.

  55. A'idah

    I want to thank Leonard for the laughs.😀

    ”It is fascists on here like the retards Leonard and A’idah”

    “Fascists; retards?” lol I do believe that Leonard already addressed fascism and its Islamic roots. As for retards, name calling is always good when one has no supporting facts.😉

    who are claiming that “Islam is inferior to everything else in every way”. “</i?

    Those quotes are bogus. Neither of us has never said anything of the sort! Although, if the shoe fits. . . Islam does seem to keep the believers down as evidenced by the fact that the only states doing worse are those of sub-Saharan Africa, according to the UN Arab Development Report, written by Arab scholars.

    I did say that Islam was primarily a conduit not an innovator. I also said that much the credit that Islam takes for scientific discoveries and developments are those of the conquered peoples. Additionally I mentioned that the last, great Muslim scientist, Ibn Khaldun who was really a social scientist, died in 1332. Not much had been done by the umma since then.

    That list of Muslim scientist that you linked is one of the early conquered peoples. Most of them were not Arabs. Follow the links to each one and see. As I said before, most were Persians, even Jews. Sure, many were Muslims because they were forced to convert at the point of the sword. And of course, leaving Islam is death. Most scientists past or present couldn’t care less about religion!

    As for the “modern” scientists, there are a mere 10 listed on another page. One of these is Pakistani Pervez Hoodbhoy, whose book I cited on the dearth of Islamic science and the lack of scientists.

    So what happened in the last millennia? Where are the Muslim top achievers, the world class scientists today?

    ”Saudi Arabia is not Islam,”

    You had better tell the Saudis that, because they most certainly believe that KSA is Islam and Islam is KSA. They are exporting Islam to the tune of hundreds of millions all over the world in an effort to make Islam supreme. Ancient Arabia is, after all, the birthplace of Islam and modern KSA the “custodian” of the two holy mosques as well as the place to which Muslims must make pilgrimage, as one of the pillars of Islam.

    ”Muslims do watch the superb shows available such as great music, theater, dance, art, science, literature, history, travel, cooking, crafts, lectures on every subject, “

    According to Arab News, trash programs like “Bay Watch” are more popular in KSA than any of the above. Yes, absolutely, the west sees hijabed women and men with 3 day beards all the time at the opera, in the concert halls, in the museums both in the U. S. and Europe. Of course, the men have no clue whatsoever where the cat houses and sex-shops are.😉

    It is Sikhs, with their white turbans, whom one sees supporting the arts, not Muslims. Music, dance and art appear to be haram to all too many true believers.

    and it is not the non-Muslims who do most of the work like some ignorant on here claim.

    In the Gulf the 12 million expats, many of whom are from Asia, do most of the work from getting the oil out of the ground to being the grunt workers. They send an estimated $40 billion to their home countries. ‘No other states in the world are so rich while at the same time having such low wage levels on large segments of their private labor market. No other systems in the world have opened the floodgates of international labor migration to the extent the GCC monarchies have, resulting in the domination of private labor markets by non-citizens. Productively employing more nationals in the private sector is the biggest economic development challenge the Gulf faces today…In all states, there is rather little mingling between expatriates and nationals and in the most extreme cases, expatriates live in separate, ghetto-like settlements,…All Gulf governments have undertaken labor market nationalization policies of some kind – whether market-based, as in Bahrain, or decree-based, as in Saudi Arabia – with a view to decreasing foreign labor dependency in the long term…Gulf regimes will in the foreseeable future depend on foreign labor for their ambitious development strategies. Saudi Arabia’s attempts to put strict limits to the local influx of the workers of the world were abandoned in 2006, as vital projects could not be implemented…’ http://grcevent.net/cambridge/index.php?page=workshop&wname=3

    In the rest of the world the worker bees are non-Muslims. All that you need to do is to check the GDP of nations. The combined GDP of all 22 Arab League countries, including those that have oil, is less than that of Spain, a nation whose economy is currently in the toilet. The most populous Islamic nations are not known as economic powerhouses either.

    Saudi vs. non-Saudi wages: http://grcevent.net/cambridge/images/population_labor_market_clip_image002.jpg

    Note the wage discrepancies. Source: .Ishac Diwan/Maurice Girgis (World Bank), Labour Force Development in Saudi Arabia
    ________________

    Here are a few more science facts for you:

    Von Neuman, a Hungarian Jew, provided the basis for the modern computer. Symbolic logic is largely attributed to Augustus de Morgan in the 19th century. Boolean algebra was invented by a 19th Englishman, Charles Boole, but has nothing to do with linear or quadratic equations and analog computers which did were largely a dead end.

    Al Khwarizmi may have coined the term ‘algebra’ but he did not invent it. Diophantus of Alexandria had a treatise on algebra in the 3rd century AD that survived, probably because of Arab scholarship and translation. Look up “Diophantine Equations” – quadratic equations are a subset. However the earliest presentation of the solution of linear equations, that I am aware of, is that of Liu Hu in the 3rd century BC – in China.

    I have always loved this:

    Muslim call to adopt Mecca time

    One cleric said science had proved Mecca to be the centre of the Earth

    Muslim scientists and clerics have called for the adoption of Mecca time to replace GMT, arguing that the Saudi city is the true centre of the Earth…

    …The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence… http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359258.stm

    That is even funnier than Leonard.

    Gentlemen (and I use the term loosely) killing the messenger will not improve the standing of Muslims or Islam in the world. Instead of freaking every time a truth is pointed out, you would do well to be honest and try to be a force for improvement and change before the ummah is irreversibly left behind in the dust of the dark ages.

    Here is something to enlighten your weekend with western culture: Nessun Dorma. Perhaps the most beautiful aria of all time sung by the greatest tenor of our time, Luciano Pavarotti: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOfC9LfR3PI

  56. I really don’t get why you always point at the things that you think is bad? After all you don’t have the universal wisdom, sad to say though. Nothing is pure evil, and nothing is pure good.

    Yes, we have a problem with expatriates and as you can read we should fix that, along with everything else. Yes it’s a failed state or at least bound to be, have you seen me disagree in anywhere? I don’t argue for current state and I try to be focused on improving the societies and lives of my people. And, damn right, I need, sorry, we need all the help we can get. It is not me that I don’t accept it.. it’s the people I want to help .. how ironic that we have the same problem and fighting one another..

    What you all need to know that things happen and life goes on. So what if one wild ruler at some point when Andalus was declining in Spain labeled Jews with yellow flags? Didn’t those same Jews lived in ghettos and slums and labeled against at the same era all over Europe? But however it is confirmed from many that the Andalucian civilization (before the start of its decline) was quite the best at its time in religious tolerance. If not the best, among the better ones .

    http://aiyshaorsomethinglikeit.tumblr.com/post/983585596

    feel free to listen to the whole video bu twhat’s important is at the start 4:00 ..

    what I mean to say, is that if you call us intolerant you’re throwing us with your same illness.

    What I hate about anti-Muslims is that they do not realize that many of us are trying to improve the situation. We know it’s bad and we’re trying to improve it. Yes, our history is full with blood and is still reeking with the stench of it, but don’t you think that NOWADAYS it’s, in most cases, forced against us? You want us to denounce Islam? well it ain’t gonna happen not any time in the foreseeable future.

    Think of it this way. There are two sides for every coin. Muslims prefer the nice “whitewashed” side of the coin. No one denies that at many times things went downhill but on the other hand it was good many times, no point denying both sides. Let it be, let us think that we were the best civilized society at some point. This will only drive the sane Arabs/Muslims to try reproduce this elite portrayed society. Why do you want to take away the only thing that drives most, I repeat, sane Muslims to improve and civilize their societies? Don’t you want all the world to be on an equal footing, because all people are equal?

    How we see it, since you dear A’idah always insist on different point of views, is that you want to take away our proud past, insult our very insultable present and leave us abandoned in the future. Does it sound fair to you? I call for your educated sane judgment…

  57. A'idah

    @Amrush, thanks for the lengthy, thoughtful response. I fully understand your frustration. The Germans and the Japanese, both extremely high achieving civilizations, have to some extent got the same problem of facing their racist, murderous, fascistic past; especially Germany with its history of producing leaders in art, literature and science for hundreds of years. One often talks to present generations who wonder how it could have happened? The U. S. has faced the stain of genocide against the native peoples and slavery. It is still atoning for those, yet has managed to become the civilization that all others emulate at this time. All nations have blood on their hands! Most, however do not deny it. The denial of the Islamic genocides, the slavery, the tortures, the butchery, the lack of human rights is very self defeating. The Japanese and the Israelis are still in denial for their crimes. It does not sit well with the world.

    As for only looking at the bad. I do not think that is true. I and others have often asked Eman to tell us what is good about KSA. Personally, for me, it’s limited to the food. As a woman, I cannot imagine living in such a discriminatory place devoid of all my God-given human rights. I would not for a single moment tolerate any Saudi male who leered or disrespected me. As for the abaya, forget that!

    The other individual Islamic nations have much to be proud of especially Persia and Turkey. Persian and Arabic literature and poetry are wonders. Yes, there were some advances made in science and mathematics, but not nearly as many as Muslims claim. The conduit vehicle fact still remains. The issue is one of denial, taking credit where credit is not due and living a down-right lie. Many people, me included counter those lies with the documented truth. A hard pill to swallow because one gets called lots of names. Killing the messenger is the name of the game for all too many Muslims.

    I have said over and over again, that the first step to improvement is admitting that there is a problem. Most Muslims can’t seem to admit that there is a problem and the problem emanates from Islam. It is not a cultural issue! The link to the same problems in all Islamic lands is the 7th century “complete way of life;” the one that tells Muslims “everything Islamic is good and everything from the infidel world is bad,” while they are dependent on everything from the non-Muslim world.

    The Andalusian civilization being one of tolerance is a myth! You need to read about that as well as India. Go to Cordoba and see the beautiful Mezquita, built over a Visigothic church, that now contains a Gothic cathedral in the center. Check out the museum of torture. It does not only have torture implements of the Spanish inquisition, which BTW only killed a few thousand people compared to the millions slaughtered by the Islamic hordes, but also those of the Muslims. Visit Albaicín, the old Jewish quarter, that is now full of Muslims; Muslim males who leer at Western females as if everyone of them were a prostitute; Hijabed women who look at non-Muslims with great disdain and often block the sidewalks, forcing the infidels to step into the street, to make their superiority point. Observe the “Kill all Jews” graffiti with swastikas everywhere on the ancient walls. Note that it is not safe to walk at night in that neighborhood, especially around the mosques/churches. A number of people have been murdered recently, not robbed, just murdered. Talk to the shopkeepers and restauranteurs who will tell you that “everything, all problems in the world” are because of the Jews.

    ___

    To be continued:

  58. A'idah

    Continued:

    @Amrush:

    Deny Islam? Most people couldn’t care less whether anyone believes in the tooth fairy or worships rocks, trees, mountains or little fertility amulets. Religion or the lack of it is considered private, especially in the West. That is not the case in Islam. Religion is everything; it consumes every waking and sleeping moment of the believers. People don’t tend to kill others in the modern age over religion. Muslims, unfortunately still do, worldwide by the thousands. Most victims are Muslims. When the Qur’an and other Islamic scripture is quoted again and again to commit terror there is clearly a basis for that and it is precisely what is written in those scriptures. It is not a matter of cultural interpretation. Any thinking, educated person should recognize that.

    I read newspapers from the Islamic world regularly and never cease to be astounded at the support that 7th century Islamic practices— such as belief in jinn, persecutions, stonings for adultery, amputations, beheadings and dismemberments, the usual eye-for-an-eye punishments—get. It’s a real wake-up call! If the literate people support such barbarism, what do the tribal folks believe? We have often seen highly educated Muslims commit “honor” killings in the West no less. The 9/11 terrorists were educated, many in the West. They were not poor or destitute. Other poor and destitute people in the world aren’t going around perpetrating worldwide terror. The father of Muhammad Atta still denies his son’s crimes. Conspiracy theories abound in the Islamic world that the “Zionist entity” perpetrated 9/11 so that the U. S. could invade Iraq and Afghanistan. HELLO! For what, I ask you; to spend hundreds of billions for nothing and get ill-will out of it in the bargain?

    The frustration that the world has with Muslims is that they have their hands out for aid, aid and more aid. Yet, they don’t use that aid to fix anything. They blame the world for their self made problems. They use Western freedoms to negate those freedoms. There is no reciprocity of equality in the Islamic world.

    People are getting tired of the excuses. Note that aid to Pakistan is slow in coming. The world’s newspapers print that people do not want to give to a terror supporting state. The U. S. and coalition forces are pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and will let those countries take full responsibility for their own fates. If that means the Taliban will rule, then so be it. If they come to the West, we can take care of that!

    The world despairs that within this century anything will ever get better because, Muslims are too busy fighting amongst themselves and slaughtering each other in the name of Allah, while blaming the non-Muslim world, instead of working together to lift themselves up. King Abdullah has recently said as much.

    Amrush says: ”Muslims prefer the nice “whitewashed” side of the coin.”

    White-wash comes off eventually, while lies get bigger with time and seem to never go away.

    ”This will only drive the sane Arabs/Muslims to try reproduce this elite portrayed society.”

    Not a good idea at all, Amrush because, it is a myth. There never was such an ideal, tolerant elite society in any Islamic state!

    ”you want to take away our proud past, insult our very insultable present and leave us abandoned in the future.

    Not at all, Amrush. The truth is the truth. Be proud of things that are worthy of pride. Being prideful of the hegemonic, imperialistic, misanthropic Islamic empire while bashing the western voluntary, cultural hegemony, that every Muslim is free to ignore, is the height of hypocrisy. As for the future, that is ENTIRELY up to Muslims themselves. It depends on their sense of personal responsibility. Inshallah’s nihilistic indolism is not going to get them far.

    My prediction is that the world, in particular the West, will begin to disengage more and more from Muslims unless they get their act together. The people will insist on it. Other than oil, we really don’t get anything out of the relationship. We have our own problems.

    Tolerance: We are tolerant of everything but intolerance! Thus, if Muslims want to obey Western laws, while respecting our customs and religions, instead of insisting on creeping sharia, then they are welcome. If not, they need to remain in dar al Islam. It is that simple.

    • Alicia

      “People don’t tend to kill others in the modern age over religion.”

      You’re right. We kill over sneakers and other important things. We also have “honor killings,”again, over sneakers. We don’t believe in amputations, but we do believe in lifelong incarceration for bicycle theft. We are right behind KSA in execution rates and well above Yemen. The vast majority of executions happen in China. Not exactly a paragon of islam…..

      While I don’t want to say all is well in the islamic world, why do think they came up with the “asking for aid”? Why don’t you think the US government “gives” aid in order to influence their governments and hence access to resources?
      A’idah, you are not wrong in some of what you say. But becoming contemptuous harms anyone’s ability to reason correctly. Islam isn’t leaving the west because there are too many western born muslims. We have to reason together to solve our differences. The point of America, as I see it, is to take the best of everything for the benefit of all. You are right we should deny that everything in islamic countries is good, but you cannot justify your claim that everything in islam is bad without falling into your own criticisms.

  59. Alicia

    “Most Muslims can’t seem to admit that there is a problem and the problem emanates from Islam. It is not a cultural issue! The link to the same problems in all Islamic lands is the 7th century “complete way of life;” the one that tells Muslims “everything Islamic is good and everything from the infidel world is bad,””

    I think you are correct to say that this is a very defeating attitude and it is at least very near to the heart of stagnation of islamic countries but why do you think this is islamic and not cultural? Just because some screwy scholars say it is? This kind of ideology is most believed in countries where illiteracy is widespread; ie. the people cannot read and find out islam for themselves. Most educated muslims know and love the hadith that tells muslims to learn from where ever they can.
    Aidah, please read more about slavery and global trade. There are reason for the decline of the muslim empires and European/American slavery is one of them. No one could economically compete with the brutality of our system. Our education system wasn’t funded until our government realized it could be put into the service of the military. Have you read about the Brittish education systems in Egypt, and I mean books by Egyptians, not the Brittish or Americans? Do you know why the Muslim Brotherhood was formed and how it is related to colonization? Do you know how Israel was formed? Why are islamic countries behind in science….hmmmm…..no bombs for you, or you could defend your oil????!! You do know that Saddam was planning to nationalize the oilfields of Iraq, don’t you?

    “As for the future, that is ENTIRELY up to Muslims themselves. It depends on their sense of personal responsibility.” A’idah, this is disingenuous and complete nonsense in the context of this conversation because in saying so you are denying the responsibility of the West for it’s ongoing intrusions into the governance of islamic countries after you have admitted that it has done so. By all means speak the truth, but don’t exceed it. Truth stands on it’s own and never needs our help.

  60. A'idah

    @Alicia

    I am plenty angry at our government and have written my share of protest letters as well as signed petitions. Having often stated that I am against all foreign involvement unless it is for defensive purposes, I am for using the funds spent on war and aid to democratize the world for our own people at home.

    However, this a blog about Saudia Arabia and by extension Islam. The beef that I and many others have with Muslims is them blaming their own failures on the West, especially the U. S. After all, we didn’t “invade” all Islamic nations after being repeatedly attacked, in the name of Islam, since 1979. The U. S. didn’t exist, until a few hundred years ago. It is not responsible for colonialism! All Islamic nations were not colonized either.

    The West regularly gives aid to Islamic nations; that aid all too often is used to support terror or stolen to support the decadent life-styles of the despotic leaders who live like sultans while their people suffer.

    The other issue is one of Muslims in the West using our freedoms against us. The veil/burqa is the perfect example. “Freedom of religion” they scream. Yet, the veil is not about religion; nothing in the Qur’an about the burqa. The veil is about the subjugation of women and a supremacist statement for Islam. That cannot stand in the West. Therefore, laws against creeping sharia are being made as we speak.

    Speaking of freedom of religion. The Cordoba House mosque project has clearly poked a stick into the hornet’s nest. While everyone agrees that Muslims have every right to build the mosque under U. S. law, it is disrespectful and inappropriate to do so. In the Islamic world, whether extremist or moderate, the mosque will be seen as a victory mosque built on a successful, Islamic jihad attack that is fully supported by passages in the Qur’an. Muslim conquerors have always built their mosques on the houses of worship of the vanquished. The old Burlington coat factory was hit on 9/11, so it is part of the WT site for many people.

    Perhaps it would help to further the moderation theory of Islam if a non-Islamic house of worship would be built at the same time in Mecca, Saudi Arabia? Another problem is imam Rauf who has demonstrably said one thing to westerners and another to Muslim audiences. Additionally, he is Sufi. Sufism is only 1% of the Muslim ummah and many consider its adherents to be apostates.
    The biggest problem is that Islam is a “whole way of life,” a totalitarian, political system first and foremost all wrapped up in religious sheep’s clothing. In order for moderate Muslims to prevail, they must repudiate such passages and demonstrate actively by the hundreds of millions against Islamic terror.
    Otherwise, no one will believe that there is such a thing as “moderate” Islam.
    The anti-mosque fervor will no doubt continue, because more and more Americans/westerners are learning about the tenets of Islam and they are horrified. The most knowledgeable are not intellectual, secular people like me, but rather the very religious. They study Islam in their Bible school classes.
    I, like you, shall continue to lobby and be an activist against the war machine. Too bad that Muslims are not demonstrating against terror and Islamic nations that have their own war-machines: Turkey, Iran, the Saudis are buying fighter jets from the U. S. . . .
    In fact, polls show that Muslims support the “Islamic bomb.”
    ”Now that Iran has become self-sufficient in manufacturing military equipment it can share its technical know-how with other countries and export its products to over 50 nations, Vahidi explained. “ http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=225311

    One does have to wonder if these idiots can spell: Nuclear F-a-l-l-o-u-t?
    _______
    I’ll address your other post later.

    • Alicia

      “I am for using the funds spent on war and aid to democratize the world for our own people at home.” Me too. Call me for any protest and I will sincerely be there. I am not kidding. Maybe if there were hundreds of millions of Americans protesting the wars in Islamic countries, they would believe that Americans are not trying to invade their countries for resources. (Maybe we sometimes set our standards too high? Many Muslims write letters and speak out against violence but it is never enough. Why should your letters and feeble protests be considered adequate? Let’s hold everyone to the same standards yet while trying to raise them. I will still be there for the protest, however.)

      why don’t Islamic citizens protest…Like in Iran??? A. did you miss the Iranians dying in the streets to try and change their government? They were beaten, shot, gassed, imprisoned and gang raped!!!!! B. !!!!!!! C. You have the bar set so high for muslims and so low for Americans.

      “The anti-mosque fervor will no doubt continue, because more and more Americans/westerners are learning about the tenets of Islam and they are horrified. The most knowledgeable are not intellectual, secular people like me, but rather the very religious. They study Islam in their Bible school classes.” Didn’t you notice there is an election coming up? Pointing fingers at muslims is pretty convenient to direct attention away from failing infrastructure and bad tax policies. And learning about islam from Christians who want to convert everyone and make everyone live by their rules is the best way to get to the truth? And I see many muslims on this forum giving you a different version of Islam and I see that you are taking them for liars. The ferver has nothing to do with islam. No repudiation except conversion to Christianity is acceptable. Which leads me to….
      Here’s what I don’t understand. In America there are many Muslims in government and not one has pushed for Sharia law. But the Christians in US government are always pushing for Christian law. I know of no islamic prosetilizing groups in America yet Christians go door to door, and visit schools under all sorts of disguises to win converts. Christians protest mosques in the name of Christianity but muslims do not protest churches. Who is looking to dominate whom?

      The Cordoba house will be seen as a victory for islamic terrorism even though it is built by sufis who are largely seen as apostates by those who adhere to terrorism? Don’t you think that is unreasonable?

      We were attacked in the name of islam since 1979. How many of those attacks were on US soil and how many were on “muslim” soil? I seem to recall “islamic” attacks began on military targets where our soldiers were on their land.

      As you well know, invasion and colonization are not the only ways to be intrusive in another country’s affairs. While I don’t believe we should accept every claim the peoples of the ME make regarding US involvement in their political affairs, I certainly think it is wrong for us to completely ignore their claims. You seem to only believe the US version of world affairs.
      Finally, Muslims are people like Americans. We are all myopic. The people of the ME are blaming who is in front of them. You are doing much the same thing when you take current Yemen or KSA or the US media’s projection of islam to be the paragon of Islam. second, human’s place inappropriate blame all over the place. When people place blame inappropriately the thing to do is show them they are wrong without negating where they are correct. As Mill said in defense of free speech: In every cake of stupidity there is a morsel of truth. (I might have paraphrased that a bit).

  61. A’idah, as much as I respect your point of view and as much as validity you have, but again you’re taking things either black or white. Alright, lot’s of stuff happened in the past that should be forgotten. I haven’t read a book about Mid-era Islam that hasn’t talked about assassinations, hell, assassination as a word is originated because a famous group called Hashasheen used to do the all the assassination. We invented the word (sadly, enough, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination#Etymology). And, as much as I want to refuse the idea of being only scientific conduits, but even if it was the bare truth it is enough to give us credit. Otherwise, renaissance Europe will have to build from the ground up. Why? because all the books were either no where to be seen (God knows what the church have done with them) or with the “conduit” Muslims. You mentioned Ibn Khaldun in one of your posts so you know that he was one of the greats of his time, right? now imagine a world were Einstein had no Planck, Maxwell and Faraday among others in the previous century, would he be the greatest mind in history? I think not. Neither would be Ibn Khaldun!! He wasn’t born with all the social science. He learnt it and picked it up through years whether it was from the Qur’an or from the society around him or whatever, it cannot be ONLY be from his pure intuition. So goes for Avicenna, Jabir ibn Hayyan, Al-Hassan, Al-razi and all the people we take pride in mentioning. After all, there must been a little bit of salt and pepper added by those. People, by nature, try to improve things, especially when it comes to science. I don’t think I’m saying anything here out of the ordinary.

    A point that a guy I’ve seen was talking about last Friday. It’s an eye opener to things. You know the famous verse Qur’an is always held against? the one about preparing the best armaments to “terrorize” the enemy? (Al-Anfal 8:60, if you have a copy around). The following verse is almost always ignored. It says that “If they incline to peace then Muslims should do too” In many Tafseers (scholarly interpretations of Qur’an), this verse goes, it doesn’t matter if Muslims know they’ll win the war or the battle or lose it, peace in Islam comes first. He also backed his interpretation with a couple of Hadiths. You can check for yourselves.

    I’m just giving one example of many misunderstandings of Islam. Islam is many times misinterpreted not only by westerners but by Muslims too. I don’t say I’m the best there is, no way I can say that. But to understand all these things one must be insightful.

    Eye-for-eye? yes it’s straight ahead mentioned in Qur’an but many Hadiths put rulings for that. Amputating a thieve’s hand isn’t that easy to rule. There are books written on try to restrict this punishment by Muslim scholars. For example, the stolen goods must be worth it and taken from a safe place. It could never happen that if one steals a billion dollars in a briefcase that a guy is carrying around. Although, he should punished but it doesn’t reach hand amputations. Same goes for beheading, It’s a VERY last solution. Sadly, judges in many places are throwing at around disregarding the Qur’anic verse that says in the lines “He who killed a life is like who killed all lives. and He who saves it is like who saved all lives”. ( Al-Ma’idah 5:32).

    I’m a firm believer that the good in Islam in the eyes of universal truths/correct overweights many times over the universal wrong. You just need to look thoroughly. Because it is deeper than what media and non-scholars portray it to be and because after centuries of being illiterate and ignorant the truths start to fade away along with every other branch of science.

    In countries where they still believe radio waves move in ether, you cannot expect them to have good scientific progress anywhere else. Yep, heard them last night on the radio saying “Thank you for joining us through ether …. bla bla bla” I laughed so hard and cried so hard.

  62. A'idah

    Alicia, Amrush, I don’t have time to counter point by point at the moment. I shall get to it.

    However, regarding the GZ mosque issue, which clearly has wider implications. It is not solely about the building of a mosque. It’s the principal of a Muslim who lies for Islam.

    Just yesterday I watched a tape as imam Rauf stated on national TV, that the 9/11 attacks were part of a larger Islamic “reaction against the U.S. government politically, where we [the U.S.] espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and [yet] where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.” “I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened,” Rauf elaborated, “but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.” Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “[i]n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”

    I and every thinking American/westerner rejects those claims. Muslims have attacked us since 1979, and not vice versa, until finally, after 9/11 we would no longer tolerate that.

    Islam came out of Arabia in the 7th century brandishing the sword, (which is depicted on the flag of KSA) with the mission to conquer the world for Islam and has not stopped since. Anyone who denies that is simply a liar! Muslims have chosen debauched leaders since the days of the “right guided caliphs,” three of whom were murdered by brother Muslims and on down the line in history. I would bet that there is not another culture that has a many murders of leaders and innocents as has Islam.

    Muslims attack and if the victims dare to defend themselves or retaliate then the claim in the Qur’an is that they are making war against Islam?

    Total NONSENSE and intolerable! WHY should any nation on earth accept that in the modern age?

    When Muslims mind their own business, so shall the rest of the world!

    • Alicia

      Muslims have chosen debauched leaders since the days of the “right guided caliphs”….
      so you admit muslims can be democratic at least….. : )
      What proof have you that the rightly guided caliphs were debauched?
      Your argument against Rauf is that his view is wrong,and the other people who believe that are wrong, because only an idiot would believe that. We should believe you because you are smart. But how can I believe what you say when you consistently say things that are demonstrably not true (like Americans don’t jaywalk)? Basically, your actions make it appear you believe it is permissible for you to lie for America but muslims need to be saints.

      Re my aunt: not in some strange religious sect. Normal 1950’s American woman.
      An example of coverature law: 1872 Bradwell v ill. Myra Bradwell was denied a license to practice law because she was a married women. Justice Bradley wrote, “the natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life. The constitution of the family organization, which is founded in the divine ordinance, as well as in the nature of things, indicates the domestic sphere as that which properly belongs to the domain and function of womanhood. The harmony , not to say identity, of interests and views which belong, or should belong, to the family institution is repugnant to the idea of woman adopting a distinct and independent career from that of her husband.” The Boundaries of Her Body, Debra Rowland, pg 23.
      Not to say the KSA Guardian system isn’t more oppressive. Must most muslims don’t adhere to such a repressive system and from what I have read many Saudi men don’t like it either (it’s a pain for them too).

  63. Unnamed

    Jesus, this neo-Con tool is a waste of time. She’s singing straight out of Fox News’ hymn sheet. I’ve never come across such in ignorant individual, blind as a bat.

    The US is merely reacting to 9/11, never initiating anything against the Islamic World. Nothing!

    How about deposing Mohammed Mossadegh to name one example, way back in 1953? The ’79 backlash was a reaction against an elected leader being deposed by foreign subterfuge. Assisting the Israeli’s directly in Lebanon in 83.

    You say we ‘provide aid’… really? It’s not a case of supplying military hardware and training to the personal military of tyrants, which in turn use the weapons to oppress their citizens. The same tyrants do your bidding as they’re told.

    This is not the same America that created the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan. Not the same America that was in bed with Saddam before turning on him? Not the same America that supported Musharraf wholeheartedly whilst preaching about democracy?

    It’s not solely an Islamic issue, this is not the same America that kidnapped an elected president in Chavez?

    Please, you’re stinking up this whole place with your hypocrisy. If America and the West stood for any of things they preach, you’d find an overwhelming support there. Instead, the US and its allies follow theirs interests, divide and conquer those who get in the way, all this moralizing and lecturing them.

  64. Unnamed

    And I forgot the main thing, this is not the same America that broke it’s promises to King Abul Azziz? The America that sought Arab support and Oil to finance World War II and then made those same Arabs pay for the crimes of Germany?

    The Muslim world should have learned their lesson after the encounter with T E lawrence, but they didn’t, they do now though.

  65. A'idah

    Here we go again, with Unnamed’s fantasies.

    I have said many a time that Muslims should simply withdraw from the civilized world and survive on what their allah provides. For sure, the luxury obsessed Saudis would love that.

    You don’t seem to be taking me up on that challenge, Unnamed. You still have your computer and keep posting on the infidel internet.😉

    As for Fox News, sorry, don’t really pay attention to them since I am a middle-of-the-roader. However, what I do read and listen to are Muslim newspapers and channels. Very informative. These show that Muslims the world over are all about having Islam rule, just like it mandates in the Qur’an. Arab News, to use an example, has lots of comments supporting the STONING of the “adulterers” in Afghanistan last week. How 7th century is that.

    Do you want to dispute that the Qur’an says that Islam must “reign supreme” or that disobedient women should be beaten?

    Care to name just one fact that I posted that is incorrect, Unnamed? Clearly, you cannot do that.

  66. Unnamed

    Your position is a middle of the road position? Bwahahaha!

    You’re the opposite side of the coin of Al Qaeda.

  67. A'idah

    Unnamed, you fail to answer the question. Which of the facts that I have presented above are false? Come on. Let’s see you counter those facts.

    Please address the Qur’anic verses.

    “Neocon”? lol moi?

    My neocon acquaintances think that I am a lefty.😉

    See, they have matching handguns and a firearm in every room. They would deport all Muslims and prevent ANY Muslims from immigrating to the west. My neocon acquaintances would have nuked Mecca after 9/11 and gone into Afghanistan and Iraq with full fire-power, quite literally wiping those nations off the face of the earth.

    Conversely, I have always been against the wars both in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    I believe in equal rights for all people, especially women. I believe in free speech, especially free speech about Islam.

    I think that Muslims have the right to build the “ground zero” mosque under U. S. law, although I feel that it’s a foolish thing to do. It will hurt Muslims in the long run.

    Telling the truth about Islam and its history hardly makes me or anyone a neocon or even an Islamophobe. A phobia is an irrational fear. Fear of Islam and its designs, as laid out in the Qur’an, is hardly irrational.

    Polls show that most people, a great majority, in particular those in the free West do not approve of Islam nor do they trust Muslims.

    Here is the latest from the UK: ”75 percent believed that Muslims were a negative contribution to society while 32 percent believed that they contributed to community tensions. The research showed 61 percent did not respond positively when asked about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and 63 percent believed that “Muslims are terrorist: while 70 percent believed that Muslims preached hatred.” http://arabnews.com/world/article110937.ece

    And the U. S.

    ”…According to a new TIME poll, 61% of respondents oppose the construction of the Park51/Cordoba House project, compared with 26% who support it. More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. …Respondents held the Jewish faith in the highest regard, with 75% professing to hold a favorable impression — just slightly higher than attitudes toward Protestants and Catholics. Fifty-seven percent say they have a favorable view of the Mormon faith, compared with 44% for Muslims. “ http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html

    Now, why do you suppose that is?

    Because they don’t know much about Islam? I am all for teaching the tenets of Islam— from an unabridged Qur’an and scholarly history books written by Muslims and non-Muslims alike—worldwide.

    My belief is that once those moderate Muslims actually learn about the mission of “true Islam,” that they will reconsider.

    Many people have learned about Islam since 9/11 many others feel that: “All I need to know about Islam I learned from Islamic terror attacks upon innocents.”

    There were at least 3 Islamic terror attacks today, including one attack on a mosque in Pakistan. In the midst of unimaginable suffering, the Islamic jihadists still slaughter their own as mandated in the Qur’an.

    • Alicia

      hmm.
      Unnamed has to prove that you are wrong but his facts are “fantasies”?

      I read the Arab News too. I often read in it the opinion of Saudis that orphans should be cared for, child marriages stopped, and all citizens, including women, should be treated equally. Same when I read the Yemeni and Jordanian papers. Why do you take the ugliest views only as representative of a people? Don’t you see that you do the same thing as the Anti American muslims who pick and choose from American writings to support their views? Two sides of the same coin indeed.

      Your reasoning problem seems to stem from here: “My belief is that once those moderate Muslims actually learn about the mission of “true Islam,” that they will reconsider.” Will “moderate Americans” reconsider when they learn about the mission of “true America”?
      I’ll comment on your misguided Quran ideas later.

  68. Unnamed

    Simply put: You don’t understand The Quran AT ALL.

    Every young Muslim when they learn The Quran, they’re taught the meaning of the verse and the history behind it.

    Some verses are ONLY relevant in ONE particular moment in history, and are inapplicable today….. but it’s easy for anyone to skim read and pick out interesting verses with no context and assume they’re making a point.

    The Quran is not a manifesto for World Domination. The American Project for The New Century is my dear.

    Even then, most, in fact all of the Muslims I’ve met and know, are ordinary people with ordinary problems, if you want to take the arguments of fringe groups with too much time, go waste your time with them. You’ll certainly find like-minded people there with your infidel speeches and complete denial that the Muslim culture had anything positive to offer the world.

    When the Quran talks about superiority, it refers to moral fiber and character expected of the believer – NOT domination or suppression. The Prophet even stated, the greater Jihad is one with yourself, the lesser Jihad is the one in the battlefield.

    But then again, you’re the person who think Taqqiyah is an Islamic concept!

    PS: Your neo-Con friends sound pretty psychotic if they want to nuke other nations.

    • Alicia

      Unnamed, I disagree. The problem is that too many young muslims are NOT being taught about the meaning of the Quran. They are being used by warlords and thugs to kill themselves in the name of Islam in order to give said thugs power. As if warlords and thugs would go away if there were no religious texts. That said, A’idah doesn’t understand the Quran at all.

      Laleh Bakhtiar, in her translation The Sublime Quran, denies men may beat disobedient wives. As women enter the fields of Quranic study they, surprise, are not finding all the misogyny the men found.

      Jihadists kill muslims “as mandated by the Quran”? Please cite the verse(s) where Muslims are mandated to kill other muslims. Not non-believers or those who say they are muslims but secretly plot to kill muslims, but muslims.

      The reason muslims were commanded to fight until the unbelievers are subdued is because they broke every peace contract with the first muslims and were determined to kill them because they threatened the social order of the wealthy Meccans (as Jesus did to the Jewish religious elite). The battles and assassinations that followed The Prophets death were related to these wealthy people trying to regain control.
      But this is neither here nor there. Your hatred of Islam is not based on reason or you would work harder to distinguish between differing beliefs that muslims hold.

      This is also neither here nor there but from the Quran, A. Yusaf Ali translation:
      Say: “come, I will rehearse what Allah hath prohibited you from”: join not anything with Him, Be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want; we provide sustenance for you and for them; – come not nigh to indecent deeds, whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law; thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. Cattle VI 151

      Oh Children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: but waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters. The Heights 31

      The Children of Isreal
      126. If ye punish let the punishment be proportionate to the wrong that has been done to you: but if ye show patience, that is indeed the best course.
      127. And do thou be patient, for thy patience is but with the help from Allah; nor grieve over them: and distress not thyself because of their plots.
      128. For Allah is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good.

      A’idah, there are many verses like this is in the Quran. They balance those that tell muslims to fight when in mortal danger. Frankly, you are in a better position to explain muslim terrorism and extremism as you and the terrorists apparently read the same Quran. So called “moderate muslims” like myself cannot understand what is in the hearts of people like you and the terrorists such that you cannot read past violence and hatred to see the Quranic message of equality, justice and compassion for all but those who oppose such ideas. I understand why you don’t like extremists or terrorists. I don’t like them either. But why do you incite hatred against me and my family?

      BTW: so far I have confirmed 65% of Islamic countries were former colonies. I’m thinking it’s higher if I keep looking. Maybe you should look for political instability from a place other than Islam and suggest that the non-muslims stay out of muslim countries first.

      Watch Jon Stewart on how silly the arguments against Faisal are:
      http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/thu-august-19-2010-jennifer-aniston

      • Unnamed

        Of course Alicia, you’re right here.

        My response was in reference to the sober minded followers of the call to submit the Creator of this Universe (the overwhelming majority) who seek to live a decent life in this transient world – not the lunatics.

        The problem here is a lack of understanding or context in certain quarters, which is being exasperated by a simplistic media narrative and and an industry (Business, Military, Political) that’s geared towards combating a phantom enemy and prolonging the misunderstandings, an industry that NEEDS an enemy, even if it has to create one.

        Islam is a faith, a spiritual call towards transcendence, while politics is politics, mere human affairs. Combining the two has produced Islam(ism) which has more in common with Capital(ism) and Commun(ism), the commonality they all share is a desire to create a homogeneous, unitary world viewpoint.

        Each can justify the most atrocious acts imaginable. The Capitalist class can justify obliterating 800,000 Japanese civilians in 2 seconds on the morning of 6th August 1945. The Communist elites justified murdering 20 million plus of their fellow citizens in the name of progress and so forth.

        The meeting of these ‘modern’ narratives, with a certain volatile element (hot headed, young men in the East) has produced Islamism, and they (the Islamists) think nothing of the mayhem their actions cause and the unjustifiable murder of their fellow Muslims or non-Muslims.

        There is a MAJOR political problem here – NOT a religious one and until that is solved, and the implicit/explicit support for certain regimes is withdrawn by the West (without which they’d collapse overnight) there will be no peace. The old saying comes to mind: No Justice, No Peace!

        The Quran or spirituality cannot solve a political problem/disputes over land, oppression, economic inequality etc since these are political problems/conditions which have a human source, or root cause. Critiquing The Quran or Islam is a straw man’s argument, a distraction from the real issues.

  69. Unnamed

    I’m sure people watching this – a black guy dressed the most people do in the hood is mistaken for a Muslim etc etc….

    It’s awe inspiring and shows tolerance blah blah…..

    Point is the rent-a-mob there and their little friend here are filled with the same ignorance and hate that drives the cave dwellers. Two sides of the same coin!

  70. A'idah

    @Alicia

    I didn’t say Americans do not jaywalk. I said that we are a nation of laws and that most people don’t even cross against a red light. Unlike in Arab states where a pedestrian takes his life into his hands trying to cross the streets and nobody obeys the laws.

    Again, you aunt is ONE, particular woman! I have multiple female ancestors who had careers, owned property and lived freely in the west. You really are stretching things Alicia when you try to compare western life at any time with the oppression of both men and women under Islam. It’s laughable!

    Must most muslims don’t adhere to such a repressive system and from what I have read many Saudi men don’t like it either (it’s a pain for them too).

    ALL Islamic societies and most Muslims must adhere to what is in the Qur’an. If one reads the Qur’an it is more than anything a misanthropic, misogynistic war manual. Even IF the ahadith and the sunnah were to be discarded, there is still the problem of the violent Medinan surah in the Qur’an.

    Regarding the stonings and the other draconian punishments in Arab News most of the comments when I read the article were pro. Here’s the link: http://arabnews.com/world/article108091.ece

    That is what is so shocking, that most of the postings were all for such barbarism. Perhaps the cons got censored out again? They do censor a great deal still.

    Debauchery: I consider the taking of multiple wives, making warfare to further the Islamic hegemonic empire, enslavement, the marrying of children, murdering brother Muslims because they were not the “right” kind of Muslims, etc. debauched. I also consider the concept of the Islamic celestial pleasure palace, debauched. Evidently your perceptions differ.😉

    Alicia says: ”Your argument against Rauf is that his view is wrong,and the other people who believe that are wrong, because only an idiot would believe that. We should believe you because you are smart.”

    LOL — I am smart and educated and knowledgeable about many things, especially Islam and its history. But of course, conspiracy theories are so much easier to swallow for those who desperately want to believe that Islam is a religion and not a political system first and foremost.

    My argument against Rauf is that his mission is one of Islamic world domination. He lies and says one thing to Western audiences and another to Muslims. Rauf also claims that the U. S. was responsible for 9/11. I base my argument on what Rauf has said and written:

    “I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened,” Rauf elaborated, “but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.” Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “[i]n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”

    Really? The U. S. printed the Qur’an and gave him his belief system?

    Rauf states: “I do not believe in religious dialogue”

    “… Religious dialogue as customary understood is a set of events with discussions in large hotels that result in nothing. Religions do not dialogue and dialogue is not present in the attitudes of the followers regardless of being Muslim or Christian. The image of Muslims in the West is complex which needs to be remedied.”

    Regarding an Islamic state Rauf said: “throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians that an Islamic state can be established in more then just in a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Shariah that are required to govern. It is known that there are sets of standards that are accepted by [Muslim] scholars to organize the relationships between government and the governed.” When questioned on this, that “the current governments are unjust and do not follow Islamic laws”

    “new laws were permitted after the death of Muhammad, so long of course that these laws do not contradict the Quran or the Deeds of Muhammad…so they create institutions that assure no conflicts with Shariah.”

    “[In the West] they have separation of church and state, this of course does not exist in any Muslim country. About 99% refuse to separate religion from state and many call for establishing an Islamic Caliphate.” http://www.hadielislam.com
    ____________
    If you don’t have a problem with the above, then you are a supporter of same.

    Don’t you know that it’s a Zionist plot this Ground Zero Mosque? A conspiracy to make Muslims look bad.😉

    ”… Dr. Abd al-Muti Bayumi, a prominent fellow of the Islamic Research Academy of Al Azhar, says the construction of a mosque anywhere near ground zero is the child of a “devious mentality” to connect the dots of Sept. 11 and Islam, to stoke memories of barbarism in the name of Islam… http://abeerpeace.blogspot.com/2010/08/abd-al-muti-bayoumi-muslims-are-cause.html

    …Dr. Amna Nazir, a professor of doctrine and philosophy at Al Azhar states: “building a mosque on this rubble indicates bad intention — even if we wished to shut our eyes, close our minds and insist on good will.”

    … Dr. Bayumi, preaches suicidal jihad: “I say in all honesty that we recruit the people of Islam, and instill in them the spirit of the true jihad, which is death for the sake of Allah, for the sake of our faith.”

    When top Islamic “scholars” from the most prominent Islamic university make such claims one does have to wonder.

    To reiterate: Nobody in the world cares what Muslims do or how they oppress their own. What free people care about is that they don’t even dream of imposing barbaric, 7th century sharia on the other four-fifths of humanity. Muslims in the free world must obey the laws and respect the other religions and customs.

    “Death for the sake of Allah.” How progressive is that!

  71. A'idah

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaNRWMN-F4
    I’m sure people watching this – a black guy dressed the most people do in the hood is mistaken for a Muslim etc etc….”

    No homeboy dresses in such an uncool outfit! The guy has on a hat that looks very much like a Muslim kufi cap.
    Regardless, there was no “rent a mob”! The people came together to practice their democratic right peacefully demonstrate. You might note that the foul-mouthed guy (very common among Muslims, especially on the net) clearly came to provoke the peaceful demonstrators against the GZ mosque. Many people peacefully moved him away.

    No doubt there will be many more such demonstrations. September 11 is coming up.

    Nice try, Unnamed. lol

  72. Unnamed

    He came to provoke? I assume taking a walk around town and wondering into a crowd is ‘provoking’ other people nowadays?

    Did you read some of the placards? The ugly underbelly of Anti-Islamic sentiments are rearing it’s ugly head. The Sheeple (which you’re a proud member) will direct their aggression in any directino they’re pointed towards, be it the Japanese in WW2 or ‘Commie infiltrators’ and now Islam.

    “You might note that the foul-mouthed guy (very common among Muslims, especially on the net) clearly came to provoke the peaceful demonstrators against the GZ mosque.”

    This is hilarious, I assume that nobody swears in Austria, Russia, Chile, Mozambique etc. Nice attempt at painting every human fallacy solely as a Muslim trait. In your fantasy world, every ill in the world is committed by Muslims, and the rest, oh say 5.5 billion are Saints, who can do no wrong!

    As for the guy he was surrounded by a mob for ‘looking like a Muslim’ and threatened, one guy squares up to him and is itching for a fight and has to be restrained (which you conveniently gloss over) whilst using words such as ‘peaceful’ and you want to talk about his language when he has to stand up for himself? Hah!

  73. A'idah

    Alicia says: ”The problem is that too many young muslims are NOT being taught about the meaning of the Quran. They are being used by warlords and thugs to kill themselves in the name of Islam in order to give said thugs power. As if warlords and thugs would go away if there were no religious texts. “

    Are you claiming that in “democratic” Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Pakistan, KSA and the Gulf states and every other Islamic land as well as non-Islamic lands warlords are teaching Muslims an incorrect version of Islam? That what is written in the immutable Qur’an is wrong? Because the Qur’an is the basis of Islam, much more so than the ahadith or the sunnah.

    Muhammad was a warlord-thug just as today’s terrorists are. The terrorists are doing EXACTLY as Muhammad did, they are following him in spirit and in deeds.

    That said, A’idah doesn’t understand the Quran at all.

    My dear Alicia, I have been a scholar of comparative religions all of my adult life. The three Abrahamic religions are what I focus on and quite specifically—since 9/11—Islam. I would challenge anyone to a debate on Islam. I have debated local imams and Islamic clerics from overseas. All were stunned at my knowledge of Islam because, all try to pull the wool over the eyes of the infidel world. They get very nervous when a non-Muslim displays real knowledge and not just the “Islam is peace” fluff. All, BTW, insisted that women must be veiled and that western women are whores, that Islam must rule the world, etc.

    Thus far, you have shown a great deal of naïveté and ignorance. You have posted no Islamic texts in context to support your insupportable position that—Islam is benign and misunderstood. You are simply an Islam apologist. Not uncommon for someone married to a Muslim.

    Tell me, Alicia how many surah are there in the Qur’an? Do you know which were brought forth in Mecca, which in Medina and why? Tell us about the hundreds of battles of Islam. Which ones were aggressive, which ones defensive? Tell us about Islam’s move out of ancient Arabia to conquer the world. If Islam is not imperialistic, why leave Arabia?

    ”Please cite the verse(s) where Muslims are mandated to kill other muslims. Not non-believers or those who say they are muslims but secretly plot to kill muslims, but muslims“

    Evidently you are clueless as to what you have posted above. It’s all about who is a believer. The sunnis consider the shia apostates and want to kill them. (Recently I had a Saudi acquaintance confirm this. ”All of KSA, he said, ”believes that the shia of Iran need to be eliminated.” This is a man very close to the house of Saud. After his little rant he went—shopping.) Both sunnis and shia consider all other sects of Islam, Sufis, Druze, etc. apostates. The punishment for apostasy is death for men, prison for women.

    ”The reason muslims were commanded to fight until the unbelievers are subdued is because they broke every peace contract with the first muslims and were determined to kill them because they threatened the social order of the wealthy Meccans (as Jesus did to the Jewish religious elite). The battles and assassinations that followed The Prophets death were related to these wealthy people trying to regain control.”

    Right!

    Fourteen hundred years of the unbelievers breaking “peace treaties” with Muslims? Lady, you need to read a few history books. Islam sweeps down on the unbelievers, they are offered Islam; they refuse and war ensues. Then a “peace” treaty is made wherein those who do not wish to accept Islam must pay the mafia like protection tax—jizya. If they don’t pay, why they broke the treaty—more war.

    Islam is getting better understood with every terror attack in the name of allah.

    ”Your hatred of Islam is not based on reason or you would work harder to distinguish between differing beliefs that muslims hold.”

    I reason for a living, Alicia. I’m a geek.

    Are you claiming that Muslims can pick and choose what they wish to believe in the Qur’an? Because if you are, then you had better check with some Islamic scholars. The Qur’an, according to Muslim scholars is immutable and unchangeable. Never-mind that caliph Uthman changed and burned much of the Qur’an that didn’t suit him. Muslims will riot if you tell them that the original language of the Qur’an was not Arabic but Aramaic.

    Ever hear of abrogation, Alicia? The more-or-less peaceful surah, lifted from the Bible and developed in Mecca, were abrogated when Muhammad was driven to Medina and he began to fight to further his Islamic hegemonic empire. That means they were substituted by violent surah.

    ”A’idah, there are many verses like this is in the Quran. They balance those that tell muslims to fight when in mortal danger.”

    That must be why so many Muslims are slaughtering other Muslims, because they feel in “mortal danger.” Pakistan is drowning and still those in “mortal danger” from other Muslims are blowing up mosques with suicide bombers, killing tribal elders.

    There are many more violent passages in the Qur’an, in the ahadith and in the sunnah than peaceful ones. I could use up lots of bandwidth posting hundreds of them. If you don’t know that then you need to purchase some concordances on Islamic scripture: http://www.amazon.com/Concordance-Quran-Hanna-E-Kassis/dp/0520043278

    ”so far I have confirmed 65% of Islamic countries were former colonies.”

    Islam has been around since the 7th century. The only “colonies” were those of Islam and its imperialistic empire, until very recently. Any objections to those, Alicia? Any objections to Islamic hegemonic imperialism that annihilated whole peoples and subjugated those who were left?

    ”But why do you incite hatred against me and my family?”

    “Hatred”? Telling the truth is hatred? Give it a rest, Alicia!

    I leave the hatred inciting to Muslims, both the so called “moderates” and the Islamists. Not a single day passes without numerous Islamic terror attacks, all sanctioned by the Qur’an.

    I am for democracy, equality, pluralism, the rule of law. I do not call for the murder of those who disagree with my secular way of life. I do not call for concentration camps or deportation of all Muslims. I am all for building the GZ Mosque, because it will show Islam for what it is, a totalitarian, theocratic, political system wrapped in the sheep’s clothing of religion.

    However, when Muslims come to non-Muslim lands and insist on sharia, like the GZ mosque imam, Rauf, that is where I draw the line! Evidently I am in the majority because poll after poll shows that 70, 80 and even 90% of westerners think that Islam is violent and that the Qur’an teaches terror and oppression. I would bet that if a worldwide poll were taken the percentages would be about the same. In case you have not noticed, the modern world does not trust Muslims. Why? Because people have noticed that they lie, dissimulate, for Islam. Taqiyya and kitman are the name of the game.

    I don’t pay any attention to publicity seeking hacks like Jon Stewart. My knowledge comes from Islamic texts and bona fide scholars of Islam, as well as what Muslims say and do. All too often what they say is a lie and what they do is very different from what they say.

    I do pay attention to intellectuals like Christopher Hitchens who states: “Imam Rauf publicly endorses the most extreme and repressive version of Muslim theocracy…

    …local Muslim leaders have a habit, once they feel strong enough, of making demands of the most intolerant kind. Sometimes it will be calls for censorship of anything “offensive” to Islam. Sometimes it will be demands for sexual segregation in schools and swimming pools. The script is becoming a very familiar one. And those who make such demands are of course usually quite careful to avoid any association with violence. They merely hint that, if their demands are not taken seriously, there just might be a teeny smidgeon of violence from some other unnamed quarter …

    …the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be “phobic.” A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike. Islamic preaching very often manifests precisely this feature, which is why suspicion of it is by no means irrational…

    … A short while ago, the wife of a new ambassador told me that she had been taking her dog for a walk when a bearded man accosted her and brusquely warned her not to take the animal so close to the sacred precincts. Muslim cabdrivers in other American cities have already refused to take passengers with “unclean” canines.

    Another feature of my local mosque that I don’t entirely like is the display of flags outside, purportedly showing all those nations that are already Muslim. Some of these flags are of countries like Malaysia, where Islam barely has a majority, or of Turkey, which still has a secular constitution. At the United Nations, the voting bloc of the Organization of the Islamic Conference nations is already proposing a resolution that would circumscribe any criticism of religion in general and of Islam in particular…” http://www.slate.com/id/2264770

    If you believe that Islam is benign and just another religion then you are either a fool or poorly educated, Alicia. What you need to do is to educate yourself. Your being married to a “liberal” Muslim counts for NOTHING!

    Cheers.

  74. Unnamed

    Also, the idea of exercising your democratic right in restraining/removing the democratic right of another group is quite interesting.

    What’s the difference between this and the Southern racist’s attempting to block/disrupt the civil right’s marches in the 60’s?

  75. A'idah

    Unnamed says: “democratic right in restraining/removing the democratic right of another group is quite interesting.

    What’s the difference between this and the Southern racist’s attempting to block/disrupt the civil right’s marches in the 60′s?”

    What are you talking about?

    The counter demonstrators were NOT removed! The foul-mouthed, single provocateur, who was clearly looking for a fight, was removed. All you could hear out of his mouth was mf this and f-ing that. Real class.

    As for the placards. Yes, I read them. What is so terrible about, “No sharia” or “Mosque supports Hamas,” since those are the truth. It has been shown that Rauf supports, is working toward sharia in the U. S. and that he will not condemn Hamas as a terrorists organization.

    Do you ever have any problems with the “Death to Jews” and “Death to America” placards?

    How about the one’s that say, “Hitler should have finished the job” or “America go to Hell” (but give us your money.)?

    You, like all too many Muslims are grasping at straws and claiming conspiracy theories. You will never stop the protests against this mosque. They will only increase as we approach 9/11, a crime perpetrated by Muslims, most from KSA, in the name of Islam—as taught by the Qur’an.

    In your fantasy world, every ill in the world is committed by Americans, and the rest, oh say 1.2 billion Muslims are Saints, who can do no wrong! Despite the fact that there are terror attacks virtually every day.

    All Muslims may not be terrorists, but, most terrorist attacks are by Muslims worldwide. Humanity does not see Muslims protesting the Islamic terror in any significant numbers. Therefore, don’t be surprised that Muslims are not well thought of.

  76. Unnamed

    Meh, it’s like conversing with a wall.

    That a clear video of a man who saw a crowd by chance and wondered over to see what’s going on, may I add, dressed the way he usually he does….. and you say: he was provoking the crowd?! In what parallel world does that logic stick?

    I’m afraid you’ve made being a simpleton into a true artform.

    Since when did ‘dressing as a Muslim’ become something which provokes such a hostile reaction out of others, normal even? You ignore this man’s right to walk around town dressed anyway he likes without being harassed or having people square up to him ready for a fight and dismiss the situation he was in (one man against a crowd) completely.

    As I’ve stated previously, extremist internet wackos such as yourself make nice bedfellows with the cave dwellers. Your mutual hate feeds off one another and breeds more hate. What a legacy to leave to the future generations. Enjoy!

  77. Unnamed

    Anyone else when this Ai’dah character declared herself as a ‘Quranic Scholar’?😀

    It does not get anymore ridiculous than this:

    ‘Islam has been around since the 7th century. The only “colonies” were those of Islam and its imperialistic empire, until very recently. Any objections to those, Alicia?’

    Levant, which today is Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and even Turkey were a part of Rome I assume? The inhabitants were all Romans? Perhaps the Roman army posted all over the known world, from Scotland to the borders of Arabia were really just tourists minding their own business?

    The Persians in Iraq, Afghanistan, the old Turkmenistan, parts of India were really on ‘exchange program’ again, just minding their own business?

    That’s right people, the origins of territorial conquest has its roots in Islam – you heard it here first. Alexander who?

    Some Scholar you are! In the real intellectual world, (not the one you inhabit in your made up dream world, where you’re a regular Emanuel Kant, a Voltaire) you’d be laughed out of the door completely and dismissed as a joke, a waste of time. Literally EVERYTHING you’ve said could not be more contradictory to all the available records and knowledge.

  78. A'idah

    The man, with his FILTHY mouth, was clearly provoking the crowd. I suggest that you LISTEN to what he was saying. He was just hoping that someone would take a swing at him so that he could screech “discrimination” and “racism.” He was led away by peaceful people trying to diffuse the situation. It was all filmed and recorded. The counter demonstrators were still doing their thing. No one stopped them.

    What exactly do you want from Americans, Unnamed? I like many others have said, that I am for: Democracy, pluralism, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, the separation of church and state— and even building the GZ mosque.

    What I am NOT for is any sort of Islamic sharia law discrimination in non-Muslim societies, including the veil! I do not approve of the hijab or anything else that subjugates half of humanity—women. I am also against any war other than for defensive purposes. I believe that we should pull out of all Islamic lands and stop aid to them.

    I have every right to express my opinion, which is that I do not believe that Islam is a religion, but rather a political entity which was mandated to use violent jihad to conquer the world, by Muhammad in the Qur’an. To colonize the world was the objective under the guise of religion.

    Care to deny that you as a Muslim do not believe that objective? If so, they please refute the Islam must “rule” passages!

    So, what do you want from westerners, other than everything and to shove Islam down our throats? I will never forget the Muslim visitor who came to our country with a delegation. I asked him what he wanted. He said, “Everything, schools, roads, computers, technology, weapons, everything.”

    Today, he is dead. Murdered by brother Muslims.

    As a community activist, I work with people of all faiths, including Muslims all the time. I can tell you that the only clerics who ever came to our region on an “interfaith” mission, who refused to meet with Jewish clerics, were—Muslim clerics. They had no problem however, having their whole trip paid for by the taxpayer and accepting grand hospitality while demanding things to which they felt they were entitled. They stayed in the best hotels and were royally treated. Of course, they refused to be near or shake hands with women. We have cooties you know. Several of these religiously tolerant men actually took out the prayer beads when women tried to extend their hands in friendship, like some Christian holding up the cross and the garlic when encountering a vampire.

    ”The only “colonies” were those of Islam and its imperialistic empire, until very recently.”

    She was talking about modern colonialism and modern Islamic states and you know it!

    So, my little Islamic imperialist, you admit that Islam wanted to conquer the world, to be bigger colonialists than the Byzantines, the Romans, the Persians, right? Nice to know that like every Muslim I’ve ever met, that you heartily approve of Islamic hegemonic imperialism and are against those of others. Yeah, Islam was a really great colonizer. The conquered peoples just loved them because they brought Arab civilization—an oxymoron in itself. Ask the east Indians or even the Iranians.😉

    ”simpleton, extremist internet wackos such as yourself make nice bedfellows with the cave dwellers…”

    All you seem to be able to do is to call names and indulge in conspiracy theories. Very typical. No proof, just your erroneous opinionated attacks. lol

    There is a name for guys like you; it has to do with a teeny, weeny part of your male anatomy.😉

  79. Unnamed

    Your ‘stories’ get more and more preposterous. You seem to have no shame whatsoever. That was a hilarious personal anecdote about yet another friend who wanted to ‘take everything’ from America and was killed by his fellow Muslim.

    Is there anything you wont say or make up to push you agenda which: Islam and Muslims by extension are pure evil?

    Is it a conspiracy to say the US toppled Mossadegh, a democratically elected Prime Minister or Allende in Chile? These are FACTS admitted by the US adminstrations subsequently. That the US was in bed with Saddam? (Did I imagine this: http://www.flyingsnail.com/Dahbud/images/sadrum.jpg) That the US finances both Israel and Egypt? That the Saudi regime (you’re so critical off) survives on US Military hardware and support etc etc….. Why were all those Saudi’s privately flown out of the US on September 12 when nobody else was allowed to fly out of the US including members of the Bin Laden family? Ever ask yourself that question?

    I don’t have a problem with America since I don’t subscribe into that simplistic narrative of G. W. Bush’s of “good and evil” the world is more complex than that. What I have a problem with though is people throwing stones in a glass house and moralist who are drowning in a sea of hypocrisy.

    Btw: I watched that video yet again, if you take off your anti-Islamic goggles, you’ll see that he did not say a single word until he was surrounded by the howling mob and the builder’s ready to fight him – for no reason.

  80. Issam

    Hello Leonard

    “Yeah, I know just what you mean, dude. Minding your own business is a really cool thing.”

    Yes it is. Please tell that to the other fascist on here.

    “I sure do wish that the Saudis would stop spending millions sending their wahab imams into the world to spread fundamentalist islam.”

    We all do wish so.

    “I also wish that Iran, Yemen, Pakistan and all those othr islamic failed states would stop supporting terrorism.”

    1. Iran, Yemen and Pakistan are not Islamic states. Only Iran here claims to be an Islamic state but in fact it is not at all.
    2. Iran, Yemen and Pakistan do not support terrorism, neither do the peoples of these countries. In fact all of them try to eradicate terrorists.

    “I really wish that muslims would stop with the suicide jihad & start concentrating on their economies.”

    What do you mean by “suicide jihad” exactly? And “suicide jihad” on who?
    Everybody needs to concentrate on their economies, including the USA which is in the middle of a recession (Thanks to Bush and his gang) and is not helping itself by waging war after war.

    “True, they mostly kill each other and nobody seems to care about that, least of all other muslims,”

    You seem to forget that these terrorists, who are murdering Muslims mostly, were made by the Republicans in the 1980s. You also seem to forget that terrorism in Iraq began after the American invasion. So much for providing Iraqis with security and freedom!

    “but still, it’s really bad for their holier than thou image.”

    Nobody has a holier than thou image except the fascists on here.

    “I also wish that they would stop taking aid from those stupid enough to give it and then diverting it to support terror.”

    When did Muslims divert aid to support terror?

    “See, the problem that many people have iz that Islam seems to have been at war with the world ever since old Mo was fighting the ancient Arab tribes.”

    That is not true. The most detructive wars in history happened in Europe, WWI and WWII, with tens of millions of people dying. The first Muslims did not wage any wars on the ancient Arab tribes. It was the other way around. Muslims had to defend themselves from those warrior tribes.
    And his name is Muhammad, not “Mo”, OK?

    “after the dude died, his followers made war on lots of people, killed the men, made slaves of the women & kdis.”

    People have been waging wars against other people since the dawn of history. It was the rule of the day. Anyway modern historical research shows that the 7th century conquests are a myth and never happened. Europeans and Americans have waged many wars throughout history either against one another or against other poor nations, enslaving them and raping their women and robbing them of their resources.

    “Many people remember that the modern attacks started in 1979, unless of course you count those by the Palestinians back in 1919”

    And what about all the attacks against Muslims and Palestinians before 1979 and 1919? You seem to forget that the Palestinians were under British occupation and were seeing their historical land being stolen in front of them. Even Jack Straw came close to admitting that.

    “and the Arab support of the Nazis. Seems like certain muslims were all for the final solution.”

    The Arabs never supported the Nazis. Only Amin Hussaini, who did not hold any official position at the time, collaborated with the Nazis not out of love for the European ideology but to save his country from being stolen.
    You seem to forget that the Nazis and Fascists were religious Christians. Even today Nazi groups and parties are on the rise in Europe.

    “Kinda like today. I watched demostrations where muslims held up signs that said, “Hitler should have finished the job.” Nice!”

    Many Christians today glorify Hitler. Anyway those Muslims who hold up those signs are idiots, but they do not hold them up out of admiration for Hitler and his European Nazi ideology but out of contempt for Zionists. After all none of those Muslims is a member in any neo-Nazi party or group in Europe.

    “Now, you both claim that everyone is equal, sure, in a democratic system everyone is equal under the law, unlike in muslim countries where they discriminate against the non muslims, won’t let them worship their own religions.”

    That is a lie. Non-Muslims temples exist in pretty much every Muslim socieity. There have been even non-Muslim ministers of governments and even non-Muslim presidents. You will never see anything like that in Europe or North America.

    “According to the news they even pay them less.”

    Everywhere new immigrants are paid less.

    “The problem is that islam claims that muslims are better than anyone else, right there in the koran. Lots of people have read that. ”

    No it does not. According to the Quran people can be better than others in the sight of God by their good deeds.

    “Now, that does not sit well with the rest of us.”

    But it does sit well with you that Jews are “the chosen people of God” and that Christians are the “Children of God”?

    “The other thing is that western civilization has brought the best life that humans have ever had in history, muslims have not done much to improve it. they just use our stuff. So yeh, every human is equal, but every civilization is not.”

    Every civilization, in its own time, has brought the best life ever to its contemporary people, so in this respect the Western civilization is not superior really.
    As for Muslim contributions to civilization read this again and again
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists

    “I think someone said that nothing much has happened in the muslim world for about a thousand years. so, how come?”

    Yea it was that other ignorant fascist A’idah, but let me educate both of you here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists

    “I think I’m with Aidah here. These folks should stop using anything that comes from the nonmuslim world, because, see islamic stuff is so much better. It’s been superior forever, ‘cause, like everything is islamic.”

    Nobody claimed that everything Muslim has been superior forever. Where did you get that from? The fact is that Muslims use non-Muslim stuff and non-Muslims use Muslim stuff. Grow up for God’s sake.

    “You dudes need to prove your assertions instead of calling people names.”

    No Muslim made any kind of assertions. It is fascists like you and the other ignorant fascist A’idah who are showing their racist face and claiming “Western” superiority to everything else.

    “Come to think of it, muslims do that a lot when they don’t have any evidence of their superiority.”

    Muslims never claimed their superiority to begin with. It is fascists like you and the other ignorant fascist A’idah who are showing their racist face and claiming their superiority to everything else.

    “some iranian official called Condi Rice a jungle creature. Ambassador Rahimi called the brits “a bunch of idiots ruled by mafia.” Amidinajob, the dude with the pig eyes, is famous for name calling, he said the brits were a “bunch of politically retarded people,” last week i think.”

    Oh please I can give you hundreds and hundreds of European and American officials with racist remarks toward other nations over the decades.

    “Fascism? Dude, islam was the first fascism.”

    You seem to forget that Fascism, Nazism and Communism were all invented in Europe and very popular in their own time and even to this day they are popular in several parts of Europe and North America.
    Islam is the definition of anti-Fascism. That is why so many neo-Nazis in Europe hate Islam and Muslims.
    “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).” [49:13]

    “”Mein Kampf” is a best seller all over the islam world.”

    No it is not. Mein Kampf is a European book authored by a European Nazi who was glorified by his own nation and is glorified by many Europeans and Americans even to this day.

    “Everybody watches everyone else, no individualism, no criticizing the governmetns.”

    Again that is not true. Nobody criticizes their governments as harshly as Muslims, especially Arabs and Iranians, do.
     
    “It’s racist and anti womyn. the cult of Mo worship.”

    It is not racist (Read the verse I quoted for an example of anti-racism) and it is not anti-women. Men and women have equal rights in Islam.
    And it is not a cult, OK? We do not worship the Prophet Muhammad (Not “Mo”, OK?) We worship God Almighty and Prophet Muhammad is one of His worshipers.

    “They blame others for their problems.”

    And they also blame themselves, sometimes harshly too. Of course others do share some of the responsibility.

    “they are militaristic.”

    Almost every country in the world is militaristic, including the USA. The most militaristic of them all.

    “They even made the Jews wear a piece of yellow cloth in spain. That’s where Nazis got the idea of the yellow star.”

    Jews fled European persecution to live in peace Muslim Andalucia. Maybe they suffered at a certain time when Andalucia was under threat, but that was the exception, not the rule.

    “Look up fascism and see the comparison. Islamofascism is the right term.”

    No, Euro-American fascism, or Christianofascism, is the right term. The Church in Rome supported both the Fascists and Nazis.

    “Oh, about the other comparisons. I read a few articles that said Arab, especially Saudi women complain all the time what lousy lovers their men are.”

    All women do.

    “Guess that must be why they have to trade the old wife in and get a new, clueless one until that one wises up.”

    The only clueless one here is you. Polygamy is actually rare in the Muslim world, and most of the time when it happens it has nothing to do with “lousy love” rather with procreation when the first wife cannot bear children.

    “So, guys, what is ur beef with the truth? I mean, the facts are there. The statistics don’t lie. the koran verses are there for anyone to read. Most islam states are failures. when r u guys gonna counter with your own facts instead of name calling rants?”

    Both of you fascists have not offered any kind of truth or facts. You just say everything about Islam and Muslim is bad and evil, and every “Western” thing is fine and dandy. There are no “Islam states”. And Muslim-majority countries are not more failure than 95% of the other countries on this earth. And we do not name call. Both of you and this Ai’dah thing are ignorant, arrogant fascists. That is not name calling, that is the truth. So, Leonardo, what is your beef with the truth?

  81. Issam

    “I want to thank Leonard for the laughs.”

    What laughs? The only one being laughed at here is you if you have not noticed.

    “Fascists; retards?” lol I do believe that Leonard already addressed fascism and its Islamic roots.”

    And I refuted that. Fascism’s roots are European (Mussolini and Hitler anyone?), not Muslim.

    “As for retards, name calling is always good when one has no supporting facts.”

    It is not name calling. You are indeed a retarded fascist. You are an ignorant and arrogant retarded fascist. I am not name calling you. I am merely describing you.

    “Those quotes are bogus. Neither of us has never said anything of the sort!”

    You are a liar. Everything you said so far runs along the lines of “Everything about Muslims and their faith is retarded and inferior to everything else, especially “Western”. Everyone can see this for himself. And everyone rebuked you for that. Guess they were all wrong and you are right?!

    “Although, if the shoe fits. . . Islam does seem to keep the believers down as evidenced by the fact that the only states doing worse are those of sub-Saharan Africa, according to the UN Arab Development Report, written by Arab scholars.”

    And those sub-Saharan Africa countries are Muslim or Christian? Does that mean mean Christianity keeps its believers down?
    Many Muslim countries like Malaysia, Turkey and Gulf countries are actually very good economically. Many of your “superior” Westerners migrate there to work.

    “I did say that Islam was primarily a conduit not an innovator.”

    It was an innovator and it deserves full credit for the scientific and philosophical revolution of the middle ages.

    “I also said that much the credit that Islam takes for scientific discoveries and developments are those of the conquered peoples. ”

    Those “conquered peoples” (I will come to that later) were Muslim through and through though.

    “Additionally I mentioned that the last, great Muslim scientist, Ibn Khaldun who was really a social scientist, died in 1332. Not much had been done by the umma since then.”

    So social science is crap eh? What is your level of education dear? You are not smarter than a fifth grader.
    And what have you done for human civilization to speak so derogatorily of others?
    And do not you use the term “umma” OK? “Umma” means nation and there are many nations in the world.
    As for what happened since 1332? Well there are more Muslim Nobel Laureates than Christian Nobel Laureates and religious Jews for starters. The great Muslim Philosopher Mulla Sadra revived Muslim philosophy after 1332.

    “That list of Muslim scientist that you linked is one of the early conquered peoples. Most of them were not Arabs. Follow the links to each one and see. As I said before, most were Persians, even Jews.”

    Those “conquests” that you keep harping on are a myth. They never happened. There is no archaeological evidence that Arabs invaded Persia, the Levant and North Africa in the 7th century. These are all medieval legends.
    I know most of those scientists were not Arabs. Most were actually Tajik and Uzbeks, not Persian. Some were Persian of course. None were Jews by the way, but there were one or two Jews who worked in translation among hundreds of Muslims.
    Another important point that you ignored is that prior to Islam these nations did not produce any world class scientist, at least for the 1000 years before the revelation of the Quran. Therefore Islam deserves full credit for medieval scientific revolution.

    “Sure, many were Muslims because they were forced to convert at the point of the sword.”

    You are either a liar or ignorant. All of these scientists were born Muslims several centuries after the revelation of the Quran. They were born Muslims, lived as Muslims and died Muslims. Some of them like Avecina and Ibn Nafis (An Arab scientist by the way) even wrote commentaries on the Quran and several volumes on the existence of God. They were deeply religious and mystical.

    “And of course, leaving Islam is death.”

    Again you are either a liar or ignorant. There are hundreds of verses in the Quran about freedom of religion:
    “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.” [2:256]
    “Say, “The truth is from your Lord”: Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it)” [18:29]
    “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.” [109:6]
    Actually few retards did reject Islam in medieval ages and insulted God and they were not murdered at all. This is in contrast to medieval Europe when scientists and apostates were burned and tortured.

    “Most scientists past or present couldn’t care less about religion!”

    Again you are a liar. All of those scientists were Muslim and even wrote commentaries and volumes on the Quran and the existence of God. Also, most, if not all, European scientists in the past were religious. Newton, Descartes and Leibniz, for instance were very religious and wrote several volumes on the existence of God.
    Even today many European and American scientists believe in God.

    “You had better tell the Saudis that, because they most certainly believe that KSA is Islam and Islam is KSA. They are exporting Islam to the tune of hundreds of millions all over the world in an effort to make Islam supreme.”

    I do not care what they think. They can think whatever they want. There are many liberal Saudis like the owner of this blog. What I assert is that the religious establishment in KSA is not Islam, which the truth.

    “Ancient Arabia is, after all, the birthplace of Islam and modern KSA the “custodian” of the two holy mosques”

    And what does this have to do with the current Saudi religious establishment being representative of Islam or not? So Palestine is the representative of Christianity and Judaism? Are you kidding?

    “as well as the place to which Muslims must make pilgrimage, as one of the pillars of Islam.”

    Only healthy financially-capable Muslims. And they even haver to do it only once in their lifetime.

    “According to Arab News, trash programs like “Bay Watch” are more popular in KSA than any of the above.”

    You seem to forget that “Bay Watch” is an American show created for and watched principally by American viewers!! And you’ve got the nerves to criticize the Saudis for it? Oh my God!

    “Yes, absolutely, the west sees hijabed women and men with 3 day beards all the time at the opera, in the concert halls, in the museums both in the U. S. and Europe. Of course, the men have no clue whatsoever where the cat houses and sex-shops are.”

    So all Muslim men are bearded and all Muslim women are hijabed? Yea right!
    There are many concert halls and museums in pretty much every Muslim counrtry, ignorant! The world does not revolve around your “West”.
    And by the way, why are there are so many “sex-shops” in America and Porn shows?

    “It is Sikhs, with their white turbans, whom one sees supporting the arts, not Muslims.”

    Muslims have produced more music and arts than Sikhs have ever done. But you are ignorant anyway so that is OK. I do not know why you singled out the Sikhs though? They do not stand out from the others.

    “Music, dance and art appear to be haram to all too many true believers.”

    Muslims were pioneers of music and art. As for dance, have you ever heard of Raqs Sharqi? Many American and European women are fascinated by it.

    “In the Gulf the 12 million expats, many of whom are from Asia, do most of the work from getting the oil out of the ground to being the grunt workers. They send an estimated $40 billion to their home countries.”

    Most of them are Muslim though.

    “In the rest of the world the worker bees are non-Muslims. All that you need to do is to check the GDP of nations. The combined GDP of all 22 Arab League countries, including those that have oil, is less than that of Spain, a nation whose economy is currently in the toilet. The most populous Islamic nations are not known as economic powerhouses either.”

    Actually you are a liar here again. The combined GDP of all 22 Arab league countries roughly equals that of Italy. They are by far greater than India (A nation of more than 1 billion people. Looks like Hinduism is bad too). Countries like Malaysia and Indonesia are very good economically compared to many other countries even in Europe.

    “Saudi vs. non-Saudi wages: http://grcevent.net/cambridge/images/population_labor_market_clip_image002.jpg
    Note the wage discrepancies. Source: .Ishac Diwan/Maurice Girgis (World Bank), Labour Force Development in Saudi Arabia”

    Everywhere immigrants are paid less.

    “Here are a few more science facts for you:
    Von Neuman, a Hungarian Jew, provided the basis for the modern computer. Symbolic logic is largely attributed to Augustus de Morgan in the 19th century. Boolean algebra was invented by a 19th Englishman, Charles Boole, but has nothing to do with linear or quadratic equations and analog computers which did were largely a dead end.”

    I know all of this. What was the point of it? That was so random, fascist! That last thing the world needs is a supremacist fascist like you to talk about science. Unlike fascists like you I never deny the achievements of others.

    “Al Khwarizmi may have coined the term ‘algebra’ but he did not invent it. Diophantus of Alexandria had a treatise on algebra in the 3rd century AD that survived, probably because of Arab scholarship and translation. Look up “Diophantine Equations” – quadratic equations are a subset. However the earliest presentation of the solution of linear equations, that I am aware of, is that of Liu Hu in the 3rd century BC – in China.”

    Khwarizmi is the father of modern Algebra. The first organized text on Algebra came from the Muslim world. Algebra and Algorithm are Arab names for your information.

    “I have always loved this:
    Muslim call to adopt Mecca time
    One cleric said science had proved Mecca to be the centre of the Earth”

    I have always disliked your ignorance and arrogance.
    I can point to hundreds of Americans who claim the earth to be 6000 years old and the universe created in 6 earthly days.

    I see nothing wrong or funny in adopting Mecca time instead of GMT. Neither do I see something funny in the claim of that cleric about Mecca’s location. Maybe it is right and maybe it is wrong. Scientists make wrong claims all the time. It is not shameful at all, at aleast not like what those Christian fundamentalists preach on TV and in print about the age of the earth and the creation of the universe.

    “That is even funnier than Leonard.”

    You do realize the only people being laughed at here are you and Leonard (Who actually stopped posting)

    “Gentlemen (and I use the term loosely)”

    I know that that was meant for me but I really do not care. I do not care about the respect of an ignorant, arrogant fascist like you. None here does actually.

    “killing the messenger”

    We are not killing any messengers here. We are stating the obvious, which is that you are an ignorant and arrogant hate-filled fascist.

    “will not improve the standing of Muslims or Islam in the world.”

    We do not care about your opinion of Muslims or Islam. The world does not revolve around you or your “superior West”.

    “Instead of freaking every time a truth is pointed out,”

    You have never pointed out any truths to begin with. And we do not freak. We tell it as it is.

    “you would do well to be honest and try to be a force for improvement and change before the ummah is irreversibly left behind in the dust of the dark ages.”

    We do not need your fake advice. And do not call us an “ummah” OK? Unless you consider the “West” an “ummah” too.

    “Here is something to enlighten your weekend with western culture: Nessun Dorma. Perhaps the most beautiful aria of all time sung by the greatest tenor of our time, Luciano Pavarotti: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOfC9LfR3PI

    We do not need yous “western culture” to enlighten us, you arrogant fascist. We have our much nicer music.

  82. Issam

    “I didn’t say Americans do not jaywalk. I said that we are a nation of laws and that most people don’t even cross against a red light. Unlike in Arab states where a pedestrian takes his life into his hands trying to cross the streets and nobody obeys the laws.”

    This is another lie. In most Arab states traffic laws are obeyed. Some disobey of course but this happens all over the world, in Africa, Asia, Latin America and even in Europe and North America. But of course those Arabs who disobey the laws (Made by Arabs, you know) do this because of Islam!!
     
    “Again, you aunt is ONE, particular woman! I have multiple female ancestors who had careers, owned property and lived freely in the west. You really are stretching things Alicia when you try to compare western life at any time with the oppression of both men and women under Islam. It’s laughable!”
     
    You are one hypocrite fascist. You make sweeping generalizations because of one man here or another woman there yet get so offended when someone uses the same “logic”. Do you realize, ignorant fascist, that there are many successful Muslim businesswomen, thousands of them are rich Saudi businesswomen too? Yet you have the nerve to talk about the “oppression of both men and women under Islam”. You are indeed having a laugh. It’s laughable I agree.

    “ALL Islamic societies and most Muslims must adhere to what is in the Qur’an.”

    That is true. Many do not, unfortunately.

    “If one reads the Qur’an it is more than anything a misanthropic, misogynistic war manual.”

    No it is not and this is where you are so ignorant. The Quran is about humanity, gender equality and peace.
     
    “Even IF the ahadith and the sunnah were to be discarded,”

    The Ahadith and Sunna have nothing to do with Prophet Muhammad because they were written so many years after his death. They are not authentic and are just medieval legends.

    “there is still the problem of the violent Medinan surah in the Qur’an.”

    The Medinan suras talk about self defence. That is what all those “violent” passages mean. Those verses order Muslims to defend themselves during war. There is nothing wrong with that. Self-defence is a basic human right.

    “Regarding the stonings and the other draconian punishments in Arab News most of the comments when I read the article were pro. Here’s the link: http://arabnews.com/world/article108091.ece
    That is what is so shocking, that most of the postings were all for such barbarism. Perhaps the cons got censored out again? They do censor a great deal still.”

    Maybe the cons got indeed censored. What I realize is that most of them are not Arabs.

    “Debauchery: I consider the taking of multiple wives, making warfare to further the Islamic hegemonic empire, enslavement, the marrying of children, murdering brother Muslims because they were not the “right” kind of Muslims, etc. debauched. I also consider the concept of the Islamic celestial pleasure palace,debauched.”

    1. Polygamy is strictly conditional in the Quran. Moreover the Quran gives the woman the right to prevent her husband from marrying on her even under those strict conditions.
    2. Fighting in Islam is only justified in self defence, and we must not also transgress. “And fight in God’s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors” [2:190]. We should even help those enemies in war who come to us for help: “And if anyone of the idolating warriors seeketh thy protection, then protect him so that he may hear the word of God; and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.” [9:6]. Humanism does not get better than this.
    3. Islam forbids slavery: “Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is!. It is to free a slave.” [90:12-13]. There are also several other verses that demand the liberation of slaves as atonement for sins.
    4. Islam forbids the marrying of children. The Quran says that we should marry when we reach a marriageable age: “Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age” [4:6]
    5. If killing an innocent human being is like killing the entire humanity, then certainly killing fellow Muslims because they are not the “right” kind of Muslims is a crime too.
    6. I do not know what you mean by “Islamic celestial pleasure palace” so I won’t comment on that.
    By the way, all of your objections can be found in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, but you are too ignorant to find this out.
     
    “Evidently your perceptions differ.”

    Evidently your ignorance and stupidity are exposed.

    “LOL — I am smart and educated and knowledgeable about many things, especially Islam and its history.”

    No you are not. You are neither smart nor educated nor knowledgeable, especially about Islam and its history. You are a stupid arrogant fascist and that is about it.

    “But of course, conspiracy theories are so much easier to swallow for those who desperately want to believe that Islam is a religion and not a political system first and foremost.”

    Actually it is fascists and neo-Nazis like you who swallow all the conspiracy theories about the Muslim plans to dominate the world.
    But whether you think Islam is a religion or a political system does not matter. That is what all fascists say.

    “My argument against Rauf is that his mission is one of Islamic world domination. He lies and says one thing to Western audiences and another to Muslims.”

    You are the liar here. He does not say one thing to Muslims and another thing to non-Muslims. And his mission is about bringing the word of God to as many people as possible. If that is “Islamic world domination” for your stupid fascist mind then so be it.

    “Rauf also claims that the U. S. was responsible for 9/11. I base my argument on what Rauf has said and written:
    “I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened,” Rauf elaborated, “but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.” Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “[i]n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”
    Really? The U. S. printed the Qur’an and gave him his belief system?”

    Are you stupid? They guy says that Osama Bin Laden was made in America. He says 9/11 was a reaction to all crimes of the American establishment over the years. What Osama Bin Laden was not because of his belief system. The Quran forbids killing innocent lives as evidenced by verses 2:190 and 9:6 which I quoted. Osama Bin Laden is creation and former ally of the US. That is a known fact.
    Many scholars today claim the 9/11 to be an inside job: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

    Rauf states: “I do not believe in religious dialogue”
    “… Religious dialogue as customary understood is a set of events with discussions in large hotels that result in nothing. Religions do not dialogue and dialogue is not present in the attitudes of the followers regardless of being Muslim or Christian. The image of Muslims in the West is complex which needs to be remedied.”

    I actually agree with him. I do not believe in religious dialogue either. It is fruitless and meaningless. No religion would compromise its tenets. I believe however in civilized religious debate which is something foreign to you.

    “Regarding an Islamic state Rauf said: “throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians that an Islamic state can be established in more then just in a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of Shariah that are required to govern. It is known that there are sets of standards that are accepted by [Muslim] scholars to organize the relationships between government and the governed.” When questioned on this, that “the current governments are unjust and do not follow Islamic laws”
    “new laws were permitted after the death of Muhammad, so long of course that these laws do not contradict the Quran or the Deeds of Muhammad…so they create institutions that assure no conflicts with Shariah.”
    “[In the West] they have separation of church and state, this of course does not exist in any Muslim country. About 99% refuse to separate religion from state and many call for establishing an Islamic Caliphate.” http://www.hadielislam.com

    If you don’t have a problem with the above, then you are a supporter of same.”

    If the Islamic state guarantees human rights then there should be nothing wrong with what he says.

    “Don’t you know that it’s a Zionist plot this Ground Zero Mosque? A conspiracy to make Muslims look bad.
    “… Dr. Abd al-Muti Bayumi, a prominent fellow of the Islamic Research Academy of Al Azhar, says the construction of a mosque anywhere near ground zero is the child of a “devious mentality” to connect the dots of Sept. 11 and Islam, to stoke memories of barbarism in the name of Islam… http://abeerpeace.blogspot.com/2010/08/abd-al-muti-bayoumi-muslims-are-cause.html

    That was misguided from Dr. Abd al-Muti Bayumi.

    “…Dr. Amna Nazir, a professor of doctrine and philosophy at Al Azhar states: “building a mosque on this rubble indicates bad intention — even if we wished to shut our eyes, close our minds and insist on good will.”

    I disagree with her but she is entitled to her opinion.

    “… Dr. Bayumi, preaches suicidal jihad: “I say in all honesty that we recruit the people of Islam, and instill in them the spirit of the true jihad, which is death for the sake of Allah, for the sake of our faith.”
    When top Islamic “scholars” from the most prominent Islamic university make such claims one does have to wonder.”

    Sacrifice in defence of your country or faith is a noble thing. That is what Dr. Bayumi means. He does not mean blowing up within innocent citizens.

    “To reiterate: Nobody in the world cares what Muslims do or how they oppress their own.”

    You are a liar, and do not speak on behalf of the world you ignorant arrogant fascist. You care so much about what Muslims say or do. You are actually obsessed about us it is actually sickening.
    And Muslims do not oppress their own people. Some do but that happens all over the world.

    “What free people care about”

    Do not talk on behalf of free people you stupid arrogant fascist. Muslims are free people, but you are not. Your mind is not free at all. It is actually obsessed with a whole other group of people whom you deeply hate and obsess about.

    “is that they don’t even dream of imposing barbaric, 7th century sharia on the other four-fifths of humanity.”

    The only barbaric one here is you, with your fascist supremacism and arrogance.

    “Muslims in the free world must obey the laws and respect the other religions and customs.”

    Most Muslims live in the free world, ignorant. The free world does not just consist of the “West”, and even all “Western” countries are free.

    “Death for the sake of Allah.” How progressive is that!”

    Sacrifice in defence of your country or faith is a noble thing. That is what Dr. Bayumi means. That is not against progressiveness. He does not mean blowing up within innocent citizens.

  83. Issam

    “No homeboy dresses in such an uncool outfit! The guy has on a hat that looks very much like a Muslim kufi cap.”

    So now you know what every African American dresses like? The guy said he was not a Muslim. The video itself says he is not a Muslim. Did not know you were also racist toward African Americans.

    “Regardless, there was no “rent a mob”! The people came together to practice their democratic right peacefully demonstrate. You might note that the foul-mouthed guy (very common among Muslims, especially on the net)”

    And foul-mouthing is not common among Christians, or Jews, or fascists like you whether in real life or on the internet, right?
    None here was foul to you. You just do not know how fascist and stupid you sound.

    “clearly came to provoke the peaceful demonstrators against the GZ mosque. Many people peacefully moved him away.”

    No he did not come to provoke. There is no evidence of that.
    These are stupid and ignorant middle class radical Christian fascists who are xenophobes toward anything not resembling them.

    “No doubt there will be many more such demonstrations. September 11 is coming up.”

    Too bad for them that their efforts will be wasted as the mosque will be built and the New York City Council supports it.

    “Nice try, Unnamed. lol”

    Say that to those loser demonstrators.

  84. Issam

    “Are you claiming that in “democratic” Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Pakistan, KSA and the Gulf states and every other Islamic land as well as non-Islamic lands warlords are teaching Muslims an incorrect version of Islam? That what is written in the immutable Qur’an is wrong? Because the Qur’an is the basis of Islam, much more so than the ahadith or the sunnah.”

    All of these countries are democratic, idiot, with the exception of the Gulf states. Anyway you just pick and choose the interpretation that suits your fascist agenda.

    “Muhammad was a warlord-thug just as today’s terrorists are. The terrorists are doing EXACTLY as Muhammad did, they are following him in spirit and in deeds.”

    No he was not. The Quran orders Muslims to fight only in self defense, and to be merciful to non-Merciful.

    “My dear Alicia, I have been a scholar of comparative religions all of my adult life. The three Abrahamic religions are what I focus on and quite specifically—since 9/11—Islam.”

    You are a liar. You do not have a degree in Comparative religion. Anyone can read whatever books he wants or visit the websites he likes. It will not make you a “scholar” on religion in general let alone خى Islam.

    “I would challenge anyone to a debate on Islam.”

    Seriously you are so full of yourself. No sane person would debate a stupid fascist like you, not because you are knowledgeable because you surely are not, but because it would be like talking to a stonewall. It is a waste of time and effort.
    I would love to debate a sane and reasonable person on Islam or atheism or Christianity. I have done so in the past and the experience was positive.

    “I have debated local imams and Islamic clerics from overseas. All were stunned at my knowledge of Islam because,”

    Didn’t I tell you that you are so full of yourself? If they were “stunned” at your “knowledge” then that does not mean that you are really knowledgeable, but that they were not knowledgeable.

    “all try to pull the wool over the eyes of the infidel world.”

    Yea these evil Muslims want to deceive the “infidel world”!
    The word “infidel” is a “Western” invention by the way.

    “They get very nervous when a non-Muslim displays real knowledge and not just the “Islam is peace” fluff.”

    So now you became a psychiatrist and entered their minds? And you really think you display “real knowledge of Islam”? You confirm my perceptions of you as arrogant and ignorant.

    “All, BTW, insisted that women must be veiled and that western women are whores,”

    That is their own opinion, but it is not based on the Quran. Clerics of other faiths make similar statements.

    “that Islam must rule the world, etc.”

    If by “Islam must rule the world” you mean peacefully preaching Islam in the hope that others will embrace it then there is nothing wrong with that.

    “Thus far, you have shown a great deal of naïveté and ignorance.”

    The only naive and ignorant person here is you.

    “You have posted no Islamic texts in context to support your insupportable position that—Islam is benign and misunderstood.”

    Neither have you, but I have posted several verses.

    “You are simply an Islam apologist. Not uncommon for someone married to a Muslim.”

    And you are simply an anti-Islam fascist. Not uncommon for someone stupid and ignorant.

    “Tell me, Alicia how many surah are there in the Qur’an?”

    114.

    “Do you know which were brought forth in Mecca, which in Medina and why?”

    87 Meccan and 27 Medinan.

    “Tell us about the hundreds of battles of Islam.”

    There were never “hundreds of battles of Islam” to begin with. The Quran only mentions a handful.

    “Which ones were aggressive, which ones defensive?”

    All of them were defensive.

    “Tell us about Islam’s move out of ancient Arabia to conquer the world. If Islam is not imperialistic, why leave Arabia?”

    The 7th century conquests are a myth. There is no historical evidence to corroborate those conquests. They are medieval legends. By the way even if the Arabs had waged wars on others, that would not have meant that Islam is violent. Imperialism was the rule of the day at the time.

    “Evidently you are clueless as to what you have posted above. It’s all about who is a believer. The sunnis consider the shia apostates and want to kill them. (Recently I had a Saudi acquaintance confirm this. ”All of KSA, he said, ”believes that the shia of Iran need to be eliminated.” This is a man very close to the house of Saud. After his little rant he went—shopping.) Both sunnis and shia consider all other sects of Islam, Sufis, Druze, etc. apostates. The punishment for apostasy is death for men, prison for women.”

    You are a liar again and again. Sunnis do not consider other sects apostates, neither do Shias. Only the very extreme Sunni or Shia would believe this. By the way this exists in other religions too. Extreme Protestants consider the Catholics and vice versa. Not a long time ago did the Pope say that only Catholics were going to heaven. extreme Orthodox Jews also have similar opinions about other Jewish sects. Extremism exists in every religion and ideology.

    “Right!

    Fourteen hundred years of the unbelievers breaking “peace treaties” with Muslims?”

    Muslims have not been fighting non-Muslims for 1400 years, ignorant. As I said the 7th century conquests are medieval myths. The other wars were Christian wars on Muslim lands starting with the crusades and ending with colonialism.

    “Lady, you need to read a few history books.”

    The only one who needs to read a few history books is you, ignorant fascist.

    “Islam sweeps down on the unbelievers, they are offered Islam; they refuse and war ensues. Then a “peace” treaty is made wherein those who do not wish to accept Islam must pay the mafia like protection tax—jizya. If they don’t pay, why they broke the treaty—more war.”

    Nonsense. Islam guarantees the freedom of religion for non-Muslims.
    “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not, aggressors.” [2:190]
    “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.” [2:256]
    “Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve.” [18:29]
    “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.” [109:6]
    “If one amongst the warrior Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.” [9:6]
    “God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.” [60:8]
    There are hundreds of other verses that escape my mind.
    Jizya is the punishment for the aggressive enemies for the destruction that they caused to the Muslim society.
    And the treaties were about peace and shared defense, not about money.

    “Islam is getting better understood with every terror attack in the name of allah.”

    This shows the very low level of your intelligence.

    “I reason for a living, Alicia. I’m a geek.”

    You brainfart for a living, A’idah. you are an arrogant stupid fascist. That is who you are.

    “Are you claiming that Muslims can pick and choose what they wish to believe in the Qur’an?”

    Nobody says that.

    “Because if you are, then you had better check with some Islamic scholars.”

    Muslims take their religion from the Quran, not from “Islamic” scholars. There is no priesthood in Islam.

    “The Qur’an, according to Muslim scholars is immutable and unchangeable.”

    That is right. All sacred books are like that, or they would not be sacred.

    “Never-mind that caliph Uthman changed and burned much of the Qur’an that didn’t suit him.”

    Nonsense. This is another medieval forgery. There are Quranic manuscripts that predate the time of Uthman and which are consistent with the Quran that we have today.

    “Muslims will riot if you tell them that the original language of the Qur’an was not Arabic but Aramaic.”

    This stupid theory by some unknown “scholar” who does not have any formal training in Near Eastern languages is widely rejected by mainstream Muslim and non-Muslim scholars alike. Here are some refutations by non-Muslim scholars:
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/vowel.html
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/luxreview1.html

    His hypothesis is widely rejected as I said. No wonder he cannot bring one Syrio-Aramaic manuscript of the Quran.
    It is funny how you were talking as if this was some credible established theory. Your stupidity and ignorance have no bounds.

    “Ever hear of abrogation, Alicia? The more-or-less peaceful surah, lifted from the Bible and developed in Mecca, were abrogated when Muhammad was driven to Medina and he began to fight to further his Islamic hegemonic empire. That means they were substituted by violent surah.”

    1. There is no abrogation in the Quran. That is a myth.
    2. The Quran did not take and suras from the Bible. The Bible is full of terrorism, barbarism and hate in both Testaments, not just the Old Testament as you believe.
    3. Certainly there are some similarities between the Quran and the Bible especially in the stories of the Prophets, but that is because both books were revealed by God (Before the corruption of the Bible), not because the Quran “copied” from the Bible. There was no Arabic translation of the Bible until the 11th century.
    4. The Medinan suras are not violent at all. They all talk about self defense in the face of the hostility Muslims were getting from the Pagans.

    “That must be why so many Muslims are slaughtering other Muslims, because they feel in “mortal danger.””

    This is a lie. If there are Muslims killing other Muslims, it is because those Muslims are terrorists, who are making crimes against humanity and the laws of the Quran.

    “Pakistan is drowning and still those in “mortal danger” from other Muslims are blowing up mosques with suicide bombers, killing tribal elders.”

    You are a liar. Since the floods no explosions have taken place in Pakistan you despicable hate-filled liar. In fact many Islamic organizations are helping with the relief efforts.

    “There are many more violent passages in the Qur’an, in the ahadith and in the sunnah than peaceful ones. I could use up lots of bandwidth posting hundreds of them. If you don’t know that then you need to purchase some concordances on Islamic scripture: http://www.amazon.com/Concordance-Quran-Hanna-E-Kassis/dp/0520043278

    Again you a liar. The peaceful verses far outnumber the “violent” verses which only talk about self defense.

    “Islam has been around since the 7th century. The only “colonies” were those of Islam and its imperialistic empire, until very recently. Any objections to those, Alicia? Any objections to Islamic hegemonic imperialism that annihilated whole peoples and subjugated those who were left?”

    Yes, there are many objections. Colonialism existed way back before the revelation of the Quran. The Romans (Europeans), the Greeks (Europeans) and the Persians had many colonies. As for Islam, the 7th century conquests were a myth. Some Muslims did indeed invade other nations in medieval times but that was the rule of the day. Muslims never annihilated whole peoples. All of these peoples today have their own languages and cultures. It is the Europeans who by far colonized and annihilated entire nations, including Muslim nations!

    ““Hatred”? Telling the truth is hatred? Give it a rest, Alicia!”

    Placing every bad label on an entire group of people that constitutes 25% of humanity is hate, not truth.

    “I leave the hatred inciting to Muslims, both the so called “moderates” and the Islamists.”

    No we leave it to you. You have been a master at hate mongering and fascism here.

    “Not a single day passes without numerous Islamic terror attacks,”

    This is untrue.

    “all sanctioned by the Qur’an.”

    There are terror attacks by non-Muslims but they are not mentioned. And the Quran condemns every terror attack as I said above.

    “I am for democracy, equality, pluralism, the rule of law. I do not call for the murder of those who disagree with my secular way of life. I do not call for concentration camps or deportation of all Muslims.”

    You are a liar. You paint Muslims as evil who are not worth of anything good yet you dishonestly pose yourself as for democracy, pluralism and equality and no concentration or deportation! Who are you trying to fool here?

    “I am all for building the GZ Mosque, because it will show Islam for what it is, a totalitarian, theocratic, political system wrapped in the sheep’s clothing of religion.”

    This shows your true colours as the dirty fascist that you are. You support the freedom of Muslims because it will be detrimental to them, not out of commitment to freedom of religion and equality. So if the Zero Ground Mosque would not, in your wicked stupid opinion, show Islam totalitarian bla bla bla… then you would have not supported it. You are lower than I originally thought.

    “However, when Muslims come to non-Muslim lands and insist on sharia, like the GZ mosque imam, Rauf, that is where I draw the line!”

    They do not insist on sharia. they want their constitutional rights.

    “Evidently I am in the majority because poll after poll shows that 70, 80 and even 90% of westerners think that Islam is violent and that the Qur’an teaches terror and oppression.”

    Their opinion, if these polls are credible in the first place, is meaningless because they are simple minded and brainwashed, just like you.

    “I would bet that if a worldwide poll were taken the percentages would be about the same.”

    No they would not, but even if they would, I bet that a worldwide poll about what normal people think of “Westerners” like you would show stronger results.

    “In case you have not noticed, the modern world does not trust Muslims.”

    Do not speak for the modern world you sick freak. Muslims have amicable relations with all the world. There are Muslim communities dispersed throughout Europe and North America. There are Muslim doctors, engineers, professors, even ministers of government in Europe and North America. The opinion of stupid fascists like you does not matter.

    “Why? Because people have noticed that they lie, dissimulate, for Islam.”

    Yea yea Muslims always lie! That is why Muslims have amicable relations with all the world. Muslim communities are dispersed throughout Europe and North America. There are doctors, engineers, professors, even ministers of government in Europe and North America. The only liar here is you, stupid fascist.
    If we are such pathological liars then why are you writing your retarded comments here, idiot?

    “Taqiyya and kitman are the name of the game.”

    I am laughing at your ignorance, and I am serious. “Taqiyya” and “Kitman” have no place in the Quran. Only inhumane fascists like you would resort to “Taqiyya” and “Kitman” to hide their true dirty face from the public.

    “I don’t pay any attention to publicity seeking hacks like Jon Stewart. My knowledge comes from Islamic texts and bona fide scholars of Islam,”

    Your knowledge, if you have any, comes from third rate clowns like Robert Spencer and Ibn Warraq.

    “as well as what Muslims say and do.”

    You are a liar again. You only read about what some Muslims say and do not to educate yourself but to look for more and more faults with what they are doing to justify your fascist agenda.

    “All too often what they say is a lie and what they do is very different from what they say.”

    This applies to you in your real life more than anybody else. The only liar and hypocrite here is you.

    “I do pay attention to intellectuals like Christopher Hitchens”

    No wonder you are such a retarded fool if you consider an intolerant angry pseudo-thinker as an “intellectual”.

    “who states: “Imam Rauf publicly endorses the most extreme and repressive version of Muslim theocracy…”

    That is not true, and he cites no examples of this.

    “…local Muslim leaders have a habit, once they feel strong enough, of making demands of the most intolerant kind. Sometimes it will be calls for censorship of anything “offensive” to Islam.”

    Untrue. They want censorship of hate, not critique. There are many critical, hate-filled books of Islam out there. None made a fuss about them.

    “Sometimes it will be demands for sexual segregation in schools and swimming pools.”

    That is wrong in my opinion, but it rarely happens.

    “The script is becoming a very familiar one. And those who make such demands are of course usually quite careful to avoid any association with violence. They merely hint that, if their demands are not taken seriously, there just might be a teeny smidgeon of violence from some other unnamed quarter …”

    This is unfounded hogwash.

    “…the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be “phobic.” A phobia is an irrational fear or dislike. Islamic preaching very often manifests precisely this feature, which is why suspicion of it is by no means irrational…”

    He has no evidence from the Quran to support this.

    “… A short while ago, the wife of a new ambassador told me that she had been taking her dog for a walk when a bearded man accosted her and brusquely warned her not to take the animal so close to the sacred precincts. Muslim cabdrivers in other American cities have already refused to take passengers with “unclean” canines.”

    So let’s generalize about entire communities eh? Christians never bomb abortion clinics or harass non-believers? Same goes for Jews and Hindus?

    “Another feature of my local mosque that I don’t entirely like is the display of flags outside, purportedly showing all those nations that are already Muslim. Some of these flags are of countries like Malaysia, where Islam barely has a majority, or of Turkey, which still has a secular constitution.”

    Your personal likes or dislikes are of no interest. Keep them to yourselves and to your stupid fascist readers like this A’idah.

    “At the United Nations, the voting bloc of the Organization of the Islamic Conference nations is already proposing a resolution that would circumscribe any criticism of religion in general and of Islam in particular…” http://www.slate.com/id/2264770

    They want to prevent hate masquerading as criticism, like that of A’idah’s, not genuine and scholarly critique.

    “If you believe that Islam is benign and just another religion then you are either a fool or poorly educated, Alicia.”

    Who are you, you dirty ignorant fascist, to tell others either they are “fools” or “poorly educated” because they disagree with you on a certain subject? The only fool and poorly educated one here is none but you.

    “What you need to do is to educate yourself.”

    Look in the mirror to see your ignorant face.

    “Your being married to a “liberal” Muslim counts for NOTHING!”

    And your opinion counts for nothing.

  85. Issam

    “Anyone else when this Ai’dah character declared herself as a ‘Quranic Scholar’?”

    Yeah. I have never seen someone claim to be a “scholar” and be so ignorant and stupid at the same time. She does not even have formal education in the subject she claims to be a “scholar” in.

    She even calls all of us liars, inferior, illiterates, unproductive, terrorists, imperialists, foul-mouthed, backward and whatnot. She wants the Ground Zero Mosque to built not out of solidarity and commitment to human rights, but because she thinks it will be detrimental to the Muslim community. Have you seen anything lower than that?

    And she is a “community activist”? Is this stupid fool having a laugh?

    Regards,

  86. Leonard

    Whoah!

    Ms. Eman has a frothing, live one here posting from a locked facility. I can see him spitting at the screen as he beavers away.

    I did see aidah posting a great many quotes from the koran. Guess y’all missed those.

    Carry on. It’s very entertaining.

  87. Anna

    Who cares who jay walks and who doesn’t? My biggest concerns about Saudi Arabia are that women can be RAPED and then punished for it somehow causing it… That women can be punished for exposing their hair and ankles, whether willfully or by intent… that young girls can BURN in school buildings because they aren’t allowed to exit with the proper head coverings… that young girl CHILDREN are FORCED into marriage and worse yet, to marry old men… that women can NOT leave any of this without the “permission” of a male guardian, a guardian who might even be her much younger, inexperienced son… that women are killed everyday for false and ridiculous accusations, for “honor,” or maybe just for being alive… it doesn’t matter because WOMEN don’t matter.

    It is outrageous.
    It is deplorable.
    It is not excusable in any way, shape or form.

    The FACT that all of the above is somehow EXCUSED in the name of ALLAH and Islam, whether it be in Saudia or any other place on earth is beyond horrifying to any person with a brain and a moral compass.

    The FACT that all of the above continues in the face of numerous, CIVILIZED and humane, just societies around this globe is nothing less than pathetic.

    Frankly, I couldn’t care less if Saudi presented the cures for all forms of cancer. Meaningless until they stop killing their women for sport. Killing their souls, their rights and bodies.

    Can someone please tell me where Saudi buries its collective guilt, remorse and shame?

    • Unnamed

      That’s just ridiculous. Rape isn’t condoned in Saudi Arabia, what the hell?!

      Killing Women isn’t condoned either, nor is it a national sport. That’s just crazy, what’s your sources for this?

      Talk about exaggerating.

      In fact, the punishment for Rape in Saudi Arabia is…. wait for it… DEATH by the Sword of the executioner, instead of giving them a 7 year sentence which they’ll only serve a half and be released on parole.

      • Coolred38

        Unnamed…why do you think women in Saudi that actually have been raped…are hesitant to inform anyone about it? Because they know better than any man there that THEY will be the ones punished…either culturally or religiously. The culture will call them sluts and forbid their sons to marry them…and the religious establishment…aka sharia court…will accuse them of “having sex outside the halal marriage ties”…dont believe it happens…google my dear.

        And since the Sharia Court is the one handing out those sentences…and the people in Saudi accept Sharia Law as Islamic…then in fact…they do condone the rape of women…in a round about fashion…wouldnt you say?

        The only time a raped woman in Saudi is NOT punished for “having sex outside marriage”…is when it gets on the news and the rest of the world pitches a fit on her behalf. Then the King has to step in and pardon her…pardon her for being raped.

        Go figure.

      • Unnamed

        Coolred38
        August 28, 2010 at 6:51 pm

        Your starting position all conjuncture and hearsay.

        You have to know women that have been raped and decided to keep schtum about it before we can follow the rest of your post to it’s conclusions.

        You’ve opened your post with a HUGE assumption.

        That’s the first thing, the second thing is: How is a Woman that has been raped forcefully responsible for what happened to her?

        I have a feeling you’re talking about something else altogether. For example, a Woman goes to a man’s flat and something happens there. In this scenario, there are always two versions of events to begin with.

        And the shame factor kicks in, she went over to this guy’s flat, and feels she may not be able to explain why to her family.

        In the neighbourhood where I grew up, a young kid, around 19 year old was jailed for raping a girl (she was his girlfriend btw), she maliciously filed a report when he broke up with her and he was sentenced to 9 years in jail based on her word alone, there was no evidence at all. His mother didn’t get out of her bed for months, relatives of mine who knew her said she was a living skeleton.

        His sister saved his ass by offering the girl money (a 4 figure sum!!) to change her account of what happened – she tape recorded the conversation, the girl freely admitted she wanted to get back at him and the money was a bonus. He appealed against the initial verdict, the case was thrown out – she faced no repercussions at all. His name has been tarnished for good, he lost a great job he with the local bank where he had a bright future.

        This happens ALL the time, I can provide you with links to many stories of false accusations leading to convictions.

        What does that tell us? No system is perfect. The bottom line, the Saudi justice system does not condone rape just as the Italian justice system does not condone wrongful conviction. Mistake however do happen on a regular basis.

  88. Anna

    Oh I almost forgot — to the person claiming knowledge of the “three strikes” law in the USA, …. uh, no, it does not apply to stealing a bike.

    It would only apply to bicycle theft if the accused were also charged with RAPING the owner of the bike, and then stealing it, along with 2 other, prior serious and similar crimes.

    Yeah, you can get put away for life in USA if you’re convicted of rape here three times, or even twice! Amazing isn’t it?

    The three strikes law applies to SERIOUS crimes like murder, rape, home invasion with a deadly weapon, and oh, even domestic abuse — battering women and/or children.

    • Alicia

      nope. wrong. It has been applied to cases of petty theft. Go search for yourself I will not waste my time doing it for you.

  89. Issam

    “Alicia, Amrush, I don’t have time to counter point by point at the moment. I shall get to it.
    However, regarding the GZ mosque issue, which clearly has wider implications. It is not solely about the building of a mosque. It’s the principal of a Muslim who lies for Islam.”

    You are the liar here. The Quran outrightly forbids lying.

    “Just yesterday I watched a tape as imam Rauf stated on national TV, that the 9/11 attacks were part of a larger Islamic “reaction against the U.S. government politically, where we [the U.S.] espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and [yet] where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.” “I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened,” Rauf elaborated, “but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.” Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “[i]n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”
    I and every thinking American/westerner rejects those claims. Muslims have attacked us since 1979, and not vice versa, until finally, after 9/11 we would no longer tolerate that.”

    Do not speak for every thinking American/”westerner” you stupid fool. I read Rauf’s statements and I do not know where he is lying! You seem to not know even the meaning of lying. Maybe Rauf is mistaken in what he says, and I do not think he is, but he is not “lying”. America has attacked Arabs and Muslims long before 1979 since planting Israel in the midst of Arabs and supporting her all over those years. America toppled deomcratically elected leaders like Mossadegh in 1953 to keep her puppet dictator Shah in authority. And let’s not talk about the history of European colonialism all over the Middle East, Asia and Africa.
    Bin Laden is America’s invention. America supported Bin Laden in 1980s. As for 9/11, there are many thinking Americans who believe it is an inside job: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

    “Islam came out of Arabia in the 7th century brandishing the sword, (which is depicted on the flag of KSA) with the mission to conquer the world for Islam and has not stopped since. Anyone who denies that is simply a liar!”

    I, and every other thinking person reject this, and we are not liars. You are just so ignorant about history.
    Islam did not come out with the sword. The conquests of the 7th century are a myth. There is no archaeological evidence of it whatsoever. Muslims have never colonized any other country with the exception of India. The “West”, Europe and America, have been colonizing other countries and meddling with their internal affairs since the times of the ancient Greeks upto this day.

    “Muslims have chosen debauched leaders since the days of the “right guided caliphs,””

    I have debunked your debauchery” theory above. Read it if you can.

    “three of whom were murdered by brother Muslims and on down the line in history.”

    This is disputed because the murder of these three Caliphs were reported many years after their supposed murder. A recent archaeological find says that Omar “died”, but was not murdered.

    “I would bet that there is not another culture that has a many murders of leaders and innocents as has Islam.”

    You are wrong. America has the most murders of presidents in history. Both Christianity and Communism have the the most the murders of innocents, not Islam. It is your beloved, “supreme West” that has the most murders of leaders and innocents in history.

    “Muslims attack and if the victims dare to defend themselves or retaliate then the claim in the Qur’an is that they are making war against Islam?
    Total NONSENSE and intolerable! WHY should any nation on earth accept that in the modern age?”

    No, Muslims are only allowed to attack in self defense. Read verse 2:190 again and again.

    “When Muslims mind their own business, so shall the rest of the world!”

    Do not you ever speak on belhalf of other people, let alone “the rest of the world”, you stupid ignorant fascist. When your imperialistic America and “West” stop colonising nations, meddling in their internal affairs and supporting dictator inhumane regimes then shall the rest of world mind their own business. Mind your own business first.

  90. Issam

    “Here we go again, with Unnamed’s fantasies.
    I have said many a time that Muslims should simply withdraw from the civilized world and survive on what their allah provides. For sure, the luxury obsessed Saudis would love that.”

    Many Muslim countries belong to civilized world, and many non-Muslim countries are not really civilized.
    So Americans are not obsessed with luxury eh?

    “You don’t seem to be taking me up on that challenge, Unnamed. You still have your computer and keep posting on the infidel internet.”

    “Infidel internet”? Are you that stupid? Alright without Muslim Algebra and Algorithms there would not be computers and internet. So why do not you do us all a favour and crawl back to your hate-filled fascist hole?
    Why do not you stop using papers, the invention of the non-Western Chinese for example? Or the oil that comes largely from the Muslim Middle East?
    And even if Muslims had no part in computers and the internet, they can still buy purchase whatever they want. Supply and demand anyone? The Muslim world is a massive market for any corporation.

    “As for Fox News, sorry, don’t really pay attention to them since I am a middle-of-the-roader.”

    You are a liar. Your views are even more radical and inhumane than those of Fox News. “Middle-of-the-roader” yeah we are buying that.

    “However, what I do read and listen to are Muslim newspapers and channels.”

    You are a liar again and again. You do not read Muslim newspapers and channels (Like what exactly?). There is none in the US.

    “Very informative. These show that Muslims the world over are all about having Islam rule”

    This is another one of your lies. Care to give 1.5 billion examples about having Islam rule the world? How about 1.5 million? How about 15.000?

    “just like it mandates in the Qur’an.”

    It seems every racist remark you write you make sure to be followed by “like it mandates in the Quran”. You just want to convince yourself that all Muslims are evil and inferior because Islam is evil and inferior.
    Sorry but we none is buying that.
    Islam is about peace and peaceful preaching. We want the whole world to know the peaceful and humane message of Islam. If that is the Islamic rule that you are complaining about then so be it.

    “Arab News, to use an example, has lots of comments supporting the STONING of the “adulterers” in Afghanistan last week.”

    And how is that related to Islamic domination you stupid fascist? Stoning is inhumane and it is not in the Quran. There are many Muslim organizations and initiatives to ban stoning, but of course you have never heard about them or chosen to ignore them. Even on ArabNews there were several posters who opposed stoning.

    “How 7th century is that.”

    Actually stoning is a Biblical law that predates the 7th century by almost 1000 years. It is a Judeo-Christian law. Hinduism has more inhumane laws for adultery. Read it on ArabNews. But stoning has place in the Quran.

    “Do you want to dispute that the Qur’an says that Islam must “reign supreme””

    Islam calls for peaceful preaching: “Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is best aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.” [16:125].
    It calls for fighting only in self dedense and that we should not begin hostilities: “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not, aggressors.” [2:190]
    We should even help our enemies when in need: “If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.” [9:6]
    If that is the “Islam must reign supreme” that you object to then so be it.

    “or that disobedient women should be beaten?”

    The word “idrib” in verse 4:34 does not mean to “beat”, it means to separate or put forth. The word “idrib” has many such meanings in the Quran. The Quran always instructs men to treat their wives humanely: “live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.” [4:19] and: “And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.” [30:21]

    “Care to name just one fact that I posted that is incorrect, Unnamed? Clearly, you cannot do that.”

    Everything you mentioned so far has been proven to be either worng or outright lies.

  91. Issam

    Leonard

    “Whoah!

    Ms. Eman has a frothing, live one here posting from a locked facility. I can see him spitting at the screen as he beavers away.”

    I am actually posting from university, not from locked facility. I do not incite hatred or make racist remarks against identified groups of people. Your ignorant fascist friend is the one who does that.

    “I did see aidah posting a great many quotes from the koran. Guess y’all missed those.
    Carry on. It’s very entertaining.”

    I too posted several verses from the Quran. None commented on them.
    I actually did not see A’idah posting direct verses from the Quran. Maybe I missed them. Care to post them again? I would love to address them verse by verse.
    I saw her talking about beating wives and Islam domination, and I responded to that above. But I would love to respond to any other issues that you have with the Quran.

    Guys like you Leonard should confront ignorant fascists like A’idah and condemn her for her fascism and racism. I have met few American women like A’idah before. All were very poorly educated, low IQ, stupid, but Christian.

  92. Issam

    Anna

    This blog is against the Saudi religious establishment. None supports them here. They are un-Islamic and inhumane.

    Regards,

  93. Anna

    “This blog is against the Saudi religious establishment. None supports them here. They are un-Islamic and inhumane.”

    I realize that this blog is against the Saudi “religious” establishment. What I am not clear on is why it exists in the first place. Though I admit my study and understanding of the Qua’ran is limited, it seems that the “religious” Saudis have in fact, managed to twist the words of The Qua’ran to the benefit of All Saudi men — whether all Saudi men actually seek these benefits or not. How, I have asked many times in many years, have they been able to do that? (And I use the term “benefit” loosely. It is hardly a benefit to abuse and objectify half of the human race.)

    Back to my question. How and Why in the year 2010, are women raped and then punished by prison or worse? How do the MEN, religious or not, of such a society allow this and the many other — atrocities– against women and girl children?

    I have to admire A’idah’s passion. I only wish that she were a Saudi man or a million Saudi men who would so passionately yell from the roof tops that something is seriously wrong here… instead of trying to defend certain positions by insisting that the West sucks.

    Maybe Americans do suck. I’m one of those bad American women. But one important thing we don’t do is harm, abuse, objectify and kill off the souls and bodies of half of our population — in the name of “religion,” twisted or not, or worse yet, in the name of “honor.”

    You can debate history and wars all you like. The fact remains that it is 2010 and Saudi treatment of women is abominable. And the more it remains abominable, the darker and more abominable the whole society of Saudi shall remain. And it does claim this abomination under a seemingly protrctive umbrella of Islam, however false the claim may be.

    And my question again is — how and why.

    The entire society suffers under these abominations, yet even the oppressors, the men, don’t see this — that their very future remains oh so bleak so long as they continue to kill off the women?

  94. Unnamed

    Excellent responses there Issam, very thorough as well.

    “Whoah!

    Ms. Eman has a frothing, live one here posting from a locked facility. I can see him spitting at the screen as he beavers away.”

    What a clown this Leonard.

    After all the ignorant, hate-filled bile you’ve posted recently, you think you’re in a position to talk about other’s “frothing at the mouth”……

  95. Coolred38

    Issam…first you said…” I do not incite hatred or make racist remarks against identified groups of people.”

    Then you said…” I have met few American women like A’idah before. All were very poorly educated, low IQ, stupid, but Christian.”

    hmmm…please forgive me if I read a little too much into that comment…but it seems as if you did exactly what you say you dont do…in the very same comment.

    Not to mention you use the term “stupid fascist” too many times to count in all your comments.

    Whether or not the person commenting to you is ignorant of Islam…or misguided…or clearly out to antagonize etc…replying in such a fashion is clearly not going to get your point across and is counter productive.

    Not to mention, you are doing what you are accusing others of doing..name calling etc. tsk tsk!!!

    I might also add that “idrib” might have ONE meaning, which is to separate…and wouldnt it be wonderful if every Muslim man, hell every Muslim sheik on this planet put forth THAT meaning as the one we are meant to follow…but alas…”to beat” is the one that gets all the attention…why? because THAT is the meaning that has been agreed upon by the millions of men, sheiks, scholars etc that came before us. It matters little whether we ALL agree with it…or even whether the prophet agreed with it or promoted the idea…all that matters is that the “established ulama” have agreed that is the correct meaning. Then go and give “instructions” on HOW to beat…all symbolic and all.

    As if any man out there has every symbolically beat his wife, muslim or non.

    If to “separate” was the proper translation…and we know it is the BEST translation…why isnt that one the one that has been promotes and established as the JUST translation…and not “to beat”?

  96. Thank you for information. Jessica

  97. Unnamed

    Coolred38
    August 28, 2010 at 6:51 pm

    I would add, even then – the hypothetical woman in question may feel a certain level of shame in front of her family and society, but the perpetrator (if found guilty) would still face the Death Penalty, providing she comes forward and reports the crime.

    Anyway, the ‘feeling ashamed to report the rape’ line of thought is the same argument discussed here in Europe, America and elsewhere. How is this a uniquely Saudi or Islamic phenomena?

    1/5 of women fail to file a rape report after being assualted in the UK (Source: The Fawcett Society)

    • Coolred38

      Maybe in the rest of the world they feel ashamed to have been violated…and some people still believe a woman is somehow at fault for a rape that happens to her…but in the middle east…she is in danger of being killed for being raped….either by the Sharia Court…for reasons I stated…or by a male member of her family…to protect the so called family honor.

      Yes…women around the world are quite often ashamed to admit they were raped…we are talking about when being raped can cause the victim her life…or at the very least be given punishment…for the crime of being a victim.

      • Coolred38

        I might also add that in Islam 4 witnesses must be present to show that actual sex took place…and so quite often a woman cant prove she was raped simply because at least 4 people (4 muslim men mind you) didnt witness it happening.

        So charging, convicting and carrying out a rape sentence on a rapist does not happen in Saudi nearly as often as it should…more so on foreigner that rape…almost never on Saudi men themselves.

      • That’s for adultery not rape. Rape can be proven by a medical examiner and that is accepted in Saudi courts. the problem is the mentality around rape so many women are too afraid to come forward. Another thing is that I have never heard of a woman being sentenced to death for being raped. They are sentenced to lashes and yes they are at an extreme risk of being killed by family members or at least stigmatized and locked up.

  98. Anna

    Unnamed — “That’s just ridiculous. Rape isn’t condoned in Saudi Arabia, what the hell?! ”

    Unnamed… Actually, I didn’t say rape was condoned in SA. What I said is that when a woman is raped, SHE, the victim can be punished for it.

    Seriously, you didn’t know that?

    But since you brought up condoning… yeah, SA does condone rape. What exactly do YOU call it when women and — “wait for it” — Young Girls — are FORCED into marriage, thereby obligating them to have sexual intercourse with their FORCED husbands?

    I repeat… YOUNG GIRLS and Women.

  99. Valuable thoughts and advices. I read your topic with great interest.

  100. thanks for this post with us.

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