In Riyadh Newspaper today there was a report on a 65 year old man who suffers from Hepatitis B applying for a marriage health certificate to marry an eleven year old girl. The staff at the hospital were shocked not only by the shamelessness of the man but also of the eagerness of the girl’s parents to finish up the paperwork so they can go ahead with the wedding. So they are knowingly subjecting their daughter to not only a pedophile but also a disease.
Some of the hospital staff apparently strongly disagree with the procedure and want to prevent the marriage but they have no power to. Marriage licenses are granted to hepatitis sufferers only after the healthy partner is aware and agrees but how can you expect adult consent and awareness from an 11 year old?!
If only there was a law that would put an end to this once and for all.
Saudiwoman's Weblog 
Nothing will change until the good beautiful women of Islam rise up and throw off their veils and make sure regardless of the Quran, or Hadith or the life and way of Mohammed that no girl younger than 16 shall marry… Or is that asking too much?
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Poor girl, betrayed by her own parents!
I cry for what happened to that child. It is unimaginable and makes me so sad and angry.
On this, I have to agree with Marcus. The revolution must be an internal one and women are the ones who must start it. You must start by teaching your children, teaching your neighbors, taking off your abayas and protesting in the streets. Some will be jailed, some may die… but the revolution and fight for freedom takes courage and no fear of death.
I’m sure LDS women have tried it in their path to “revolution & freedom”. Oh wait, who I am replying to?
Cheers!
Actually, the LDS Church made this illegal a long time ago. It only happens illegally in cults who pretend to be of the LDS Church. That’s why these cults hid and live secretly.
Elise- why does one need to take off any clothes in order to change? The abya isn’t at fault here and the ‘education’ you speak of can be done just as easily in an abya as it can without one. Clothes are not the issue.. how sad many limit it to that.
Nzingha- My sentiments exactly!
HI Elise,
many thanks for your supportive post..
And yes, you are quite right.. This fight is not only for the women, but good educated males as well..
Only when the good beautiful women who are quite clearly ruled over, slaved, abused, oppressed and suppressed decide to act and remove this vile hateful black cloak and become free to speak to who you want, smile at who you want, talk to whoever you wish to, even just to walk in the park with the sun on your faces, enjoying the gorgeous day, watching other folk play with their kids, even swimming together.. Then it will only continue.
The issues at hand for women in Saudi Arabia are literally religious. The whole Country lives under religious law under a male dominated society where the men are frightened to death of the female.. scared of her power.. scared of her independence.. scared of her education, her knowledge.. The woman is the male property, she is owned and must take all her orders from the male.. How perverse this truly is..
We can look to the past life of Mohammed if we like and we read the evidence that even after the slaughter of the Jews by Mohammed and his men that Mohammed passed the women folk of the town to his men as war booty… to rape.. and then to sell… if they so wish… This is the true life of Mohammed… So I doubt anyone expects anything else…
Women stand up.. women fight for your rights… May you all be blessed with health, peace, happiness, joy and Love..
For love has no evil, Love has no badness, Love has no jealousy for Love has no room for jealousy.. Love is pure..
Love is the key and the path.
This reminds me of the 3 men who were HIV positive and married off to 3 young cousins, with their “consent”, and the agreement of the government because of the law you cited. They of course became HIV positive and are at high risk of maternal-fetal transmission of the virus.
The same is true here. She will most likely sero-convert to being HepB positive, particularly given that tearing during (post-menarche) intercourse is likely because of her age and size making transmission more likely. Ditto the maternal-fetal transmission.
This is an area where (male and female) doctors can be in the vanguard of social reform, as they (the male ones initially) have been elsewhere for therapeutic abortion, against child abuse, etc.
This is truly a sad story. I pray that this marriage does not take place for the sake of the child. The world today lacks strong moral leadership and a decisive sense of direction. Unfortunately, children exploitation is rampant all over the world today.
With the movement for globalization, it is needed that international laws regarding the safety of children be written and then most importantly enforced. My prayers are with the eleven year old child.
Sincerely,
Maryam Ruhullah
The UN has passed endless laws trying to protect children. But they are too busy trying to make Israel look bad.
I feel sick… I feel disgusted.. I feel a shame for anyone that allows such a marriage to take place. I pray that it is stopped. I say the greedy parents of the girl get divorced and lets allow her mother to marry this old man!
@Om Lujain AMEN! you took the words right out of my mouth:-)
this kind of things make me feel sick. It seems that in KSA pedophilia is not only allowed, but it is something normal and approved by big part of the society. It is sick. And after that they show us beautiful films about how happy and respected are women in Islamic society – here we have the most Islamic one!!!! And it is true – how could Muhammad, if he was a prophet really, not think about what may happen to all this girls, when he was marrying Aisha (even if in those times it was normal). And after that Islam also says that THERE ARE MORE WOMEN IN THE HELL THAN MEN!!!
Most people think Islam’s prophet was of this persuasion. And, it wasn’t normal to marry and have sexual relations of any type (bathing together, thighing, rubbing, coitus) with six to nine year olds anywhere except where Islam exists. Also, in the Ottoman Empire where it was normal to have sexual relations with young boys and girls. In some cultures, marriages were arranged at young ages but the actual marriage, living together and sexual relations didn’t occur until at least 16 to 18 years old.
Sick and disgusting.
Agata, It is very unlikely Mohammed said that there would be more women in hell as men, that hadith is from Abu Haraira, of whom it is known that he invented hadith.
The age of Aisha is more likely to have been something between 17 and 20 when you compare the different happenings chronologically.
And KSA is not following Islam but a very backward tribal culture.
I appreciate that you are not blindly convinced by rumors and stereotypes but sensibly analyze the situation.
You mean that a) you can’t take the truth even if there is well documented evidence and b) admit that it happens and do something positive about it? Isn’t that the rational way to defend injustice instead of deflecting the argument and taking it as a personal attack. If she were your daughter, how would you feel?
Thank you
😈
What about the stories about her playing with her dolls and stopping playing so Mohamamed could rub himself against her to satisfaction. He then told her to wash the sperm out of Mohamamed’s clothes so he could go and pray with the other men. It speaks of his clothes displaying the wetness where she had washed and rinsed. There are too many stories regarding her age and circumstances, from too many different approved sources. Plus, her date of birth and death is documented, plus Mohammed’s birthday and date of death, and the age he was when he met her and demanded her. Too many details about the entire situation to try and make it sound acceptable and different now.
But nobody really knew their own age at that time, a lot of people in the middle east don’t know their exact age even now, when they are from an older generation. Years weren’t counted, they said ”this happened in the year of the camel” or something like that. Ages are very unsure at that time and at best only a guess.
this is slavery !!!!!!
which Mohammed acted out and promoted..
Aafke, I also agree that isn’t Islam- where are the penal codes, if any, against this abuse? HIV, and Hep confirmed marrying virgins won’t take the disease away; and I swear the parents should 1000 lashes for this inhumanity!
Will a petition to the King make a wrinkle in this? Probably not! It seems a revolting trend towards wanting to populate KSA with disease- willingly for the sake of money, status, whathaveyou! ‘Cause its not heaven they’re reaching for.
Utterly disgusting!
Inal/
of course this is Islam… Marrying young girls of around the ages of 9 years is definitely Islamic.. Forget the disease here for a minute…
Read and search the Coran for information about religion. There is no compulsion in religion. That means it is forbidden to impose religion on anyone. If you do, then it is opression. Allah wants you to fight opressors and oppression. It is clear that the kingdom of Saudi Arabia does not follow Islam.
Have you read the first one hundred year’s history and beyond for Islam? I’d say that Islam was spread by nothing but compulsion (sword and beheading and slavery). So, that sort of seems like on one hand the Koran says one thing and the leader and followers are doing something else. Also, robbery was approved, too. It’s a very confusing way of life to me when all I hear about is “peace”.
Yes, we understand completely there is no compulsion with Islam… Hence why the punishment for Apostasy is death… I think that clears the matter up…
Have a great day… Salaam.
As Salaamu Alaikum:
I can’t read the Arabic, but did the newspaper note the names of the families? Maybe that would shame them into not marrying the poor child off.
as a mother of an 11 year old girl I’m disgusted.. that parents can see her capable of marriage.. sexual.. it is maddening.. that the country fails to protect their trust (children) is enraging. When will it be enough for someone to act?
Not until all women can walk down the street with their hair flowing in the wind, the sun on their face and a smile so bright it lights up the world.. Hey and even folk will smile back at you… and not even have the thought of sex on their minds…
“IF ONLY”… yes?
Marcus sounds like a long-haired hippy hiiiiiggh on pot 😀
“Imagine all the people..”lol
Yes, surely when all saudi women take off the “black cloak” and run to the streets dancing with their hair flowing and decorated with flowers..all the problems will be solved, just like that!
Thanks Marcus.
Gee why didnt we think of that earlier?
Nzingha.
HI there.. hope you are well and good.
Obviously you are not enraged enough to stand, act and take up the fight..?
“Evil will only succeed when good men do nothing”…
Laurea,
hi there, I hope your well…
I have no idea why you did not think of that… its very simple as you now can see…
Maybe organise a carnival?
Have a good day…
As a mother I cannot imagine any other mother approving of such criminality. The bride price is tantamount to selling children!
A number of people have hit the nail on the head. Until such time that Muslim women rise up, throw off the prison of the veil, demand equal rights, protect their gender as well as their children nothing will change.
_____
“”Usman stated:
“I’m sure LDS women have tried it in their path to “revolution & freedom”. Oh wait, who I am replying to?
Cheers!”
__________
Indeed, many LDS women have rebelled, run away and even sued their jailer “husbands.” The law has protected them while throwing their polygamy practicing, paedophile “husbands” into prison. Additionally paedophilia is against the law in the civilized world. Clearly it’s not in the Islamic world, since child marriages are quite common and legal under sharia in all too many Islamic states.
Whatever goes wrong always seems to be the fault of the female. If she is raped then she is imprisoned for being in the “wrong place at the wrong time,” and the men get away with murder.
___________
Unfortunately, these sorts of stories are quite common in the Islamic world:
“Dead Yemeni Child Bride Tied Up, Raped, Says Mom”
A 13-year-old Yemeni child bride who bled to death shortly after marriage was tied down and forced to have sex by her husband, according to interviews with the child’s mother, police and medical reports…
…The practice of marrying young girls is widespread in Yemen where a QUARTER of all females marry before the age of 15, according to a 2009 report by the country’s Ministry of Social Affairs. Traditional families prefer young brides because they are seen as more obedient and are expected to have more children…
…A February 2009 law set the minimum age for marriage at 17, but it was repealed and sent back to parliament’s constitutional committee for review after some lawmakers called it UN-ISLAMIC…
The issue of Yemen’s child brides received widespread attention three years ago when an 8-year-old girl boldly went by herself to a courtroom and demanded a judge dissolve her marriage to a man in his 30s. She eventually won a divorce.
In September, a 12-year-old Yemeni child-bride died after struggling for three days in labor to give birth, a local human rights organization said.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/10/world/AP-ML-Yemen-Child-Bride.html?_r=3&ref=global-home
______________
Yes, not having child brides is very “unIslamic.”
The rest of the world calls this paedophilia and its a crime. Evidently the ummah doesn’t care to think about that since the “perfect man” did it.
Ever came out of your town or Just “traveled” through this computer screen? Your taunting on Islam and Muslim civilization is so immature and superficial that it gets funny instead of annoying.
Comments and ‘thoughts’ by Americans and their frustration over foreign culture is one of the most amusing element of internet blogosphere.
Can you please respond something rational, or the only thing you can do is insulting? When there are no rational arguments you always can try insulting. I AM NOT AMERICAN, and I agree with that
You know what? I am not american and I am not frustrated over foreigner culture, that I love to explore and from whom I often learn something new; but reading of people like you makes me think that I am lucky not to know anyone like you!!!! Maybe you write like this because you are one of those proud men who have themselves bought and reduced in slavery a child?You and your similars make me sick
Usman,
You are the person here who is responding rudely, immaturely and superficially. All that writer was doing is writing the truth. I could do a search in Google and come up with many Islamic scholars spouting the same words she said when they are insisting that the very acts written about in the newspaper are approved under Islamic theology.
If you want to prove your point then prove what she is writing is NOT TRUE AND IS NOT THE NORMAL BEHAVIOR. Then you will have readers respecting and listening to you.
Also, the method in which you responded is the typical circular type of response used to try and make the person telling the truth the wrong one. Prove what she said isn’t true.
In other words, respond with maturity and depth – not just with insults.
I used to be LDS, I hated how limited I was for just being “female”, I got very upset when I was put down for wanting to work and my husband stay home. I couldn’t stand that I wasn’t allowed to wear pants, they told me that only men could talk to God.
I thought I had it rough, but looking back now I realize how foolish and selfish I was. Nothing in America comes close to the hardships of the Saudi Women. I wish now only to learn more and hopefully see you women get the same freedoms American women are born with.
I love you all.
OMG! Why doesn’t the government take strong action against this injustice. This is so unbearable.
@usman- eres como ‘la tarara’ detras de la puerta tiras platos’ say something useful!
O’jala tengas hijas que te obliguen a tener una situacion como esta, y te arrepientas de haber nacido- poco hombre que eres!
عقل کو ہاتھ مار بی بی!
انگریزی میں بات کرو
LOL.
Comments and ‘thoughts’ by Americans and their frustration over foreign culture is one of the most amusing element of internet blogosphere.
You, so ‘open minded’ cannot understand that humans can be more than Americans or Arabic. Change Americans for you, in your post, and it will suit perfectly 🙂
Actually Usman everyone speaks clearly and all make perfect sense in whatever language they use; foreign or otherwise (the otherwise depends on you).
If you translated the spanish- it was a hopeful curse of finding yourself in a predicament like the one that has us mostly disgusted from the situation in the post and the example given from Yemen-that may have you wishing you were never born. Because what parent who fears Allah would put their children through these kinds of nightmares.
If I don’t make sense; its ok- not everyone is humane.
Evidently Usman approves of paedophilia and finds objections to it amusing.
Here is yet another Saudi family that married off a twelve year old to an old pervert of eighty for $23,000.- Clearly, “fear of Allah” doesn’t mean much, since Allah has let these things go on through the centuries. Then there is always justification from the ulema.
“…Many of the country’s hard-line Wahhabi imams claim child marriage is justified by the Koran, since the Prophet Muhammad wed his third wife, Aisha, when she was only 9 years old. “It is incorrect to say that it’s not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger,” Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh, the kingdom’s top cleric, said in January, according to the regional Al-Hayat newspaper. “A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she’s too young are wrong, and they are being unfair to her.”
______
Being “fair” apparently means letting old men satisfy their paedophile, carnal urges on children. In other nations both the parents and the bridegroom would be in jail and the child in protective custody.
______
“Saudi rights panel take up child bride case”
Saudi Arabia’s state human rights body has hired a lawyer to review the case of a girl whose mother sought her divorce from an 80-year-old man, a move activists hope is a first step against child marriage.
Saudi Arabia, a patriarchal society that applies an austere version of Sunni Islam, has no minimum legal age for marriage. Fathers are granted guardianship over their daughters, giving them control over who their daughters marry and when.
The girl — believed to be 12 years old — from Buraidah, a conservative town near the capital Riyadh, was married to her father’s elderly cousin late last year for bridal money of 85,000 riyals ($23,000), lawyer Sultan bin Zahim said…
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6173TQ20100208
“This case is an investment in order to push for a law,” Wajiha al-Huweider, a Saudi rights activist, told Reuters. “We need to affect public opinion and I believe that Saudi Arabia will issue a law preventing child marriages soon.”
___________________
I wish our friend Wajiha luck in this. However, many believe that it will come to nothing as long as Muslim men are convinced that women are property to be bought, sold, used and bred like cattle. Once they are worn out, which often doesn’t take long, a new, young wife is in line for the same abuse.
One does have to wonder why Saudi women are not at the barricades.
hahaha…
I did not blame you for your comment. Instead, I replied you in my language. And as you said “all make perfect sense in whatever language they use; foreign or otherwise (the otherwise depends on you)”.
By the way, How would I know that whatever you typed is Spanish? 🙂
Salaam!
You could translate it using Google’s free translater. No more hiding behind your language to insult.
Inal, Usman is a man, he will not suffer this situation, and from his comments I suspect he will be the one making others suffer if he can.
His callousness in regard to this heartbreaking post, his defense of the evil, and spurious attacks on those who condemn it, can only mean he will be trying to rape underage schoolchildren if he gets the chance while being a diseased geriatric himself.
Where on earth I said that I advocate underage marriage?? Go back and read my comments carefully.
“can only mean he will be trying to rape underage schoolchildren if he gets the chance while being a diseased geriatric himself.”
WOW, Now if I give reply to sleaziest language like this, I will be accused of being troll, and You, and other ladies who are using this language against me and even prophet Muhammad will walk away because you ladies have “opinion”.
Ridiculous!
Evidently Usman approves of paedophilia and finds objections to it amusing?
Here is yet another Saudi family that married off a twelve year old to an old pervert of eighty for $23,000.- Clearly, “fear of Allah” doesn’t mean much, since Allah has let these things go on through the centuries. Then there is always justification from the ulema.
“…Many of the country’s hard-line Wahhabi imams claim child marriage is justified by the Koran, since the Prophet Muhammad wed his third wife, Aisha, when she was only 9 years old. “It is incorrect to say that it’s not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger,” Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh, the kingdom’s top cleric, said in January, according to the regional Al-Hayat newspaper. “A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she’s too young are wrong, and they are being unfair to her.”
______
Being “fair” apparently means letting old men satisfy their paedophile, carnal urges on children. In other nations both the parents and the bridegroom would be in jail and the child in protective custody.
______
“Saudi rights panel take up child bride case”
Saudi Arabia’s state human rights body has hired a lawyer to review the case of a girl whose mother sought her divorce from an 80-year-old man, a move activists hope is a first step against child marriage.
Saudi Arabia, a patriarchal society that applies an austere version of Sunni Islam, has no minimum legal age for marriage. Fathers are granted guardianship over their daughters, giving them control over who their daughters marry and when.
The girl — believed to be 12 years old — from Buraidah, a conservative town near the capital Riyadh, was married to her father’s elderly cousin late last year for bridal money of 85,000 riyals ($23,000), lawyer Sultan bin Zahim said…
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6173TQ20100208
“This case is an investment in order to push for a law,” Wajiha al-Huweider, a Saudi rights activist, told Reuters. “We need to affect public opinion and I believe that Saudi Arabia will issue a law preventing child marriages soon.”
___________________
I wish our friend Wajiha luck in this. However, many believe that it will come to nothing as long as Muslim men are convinced that women are property to be bought, sold, used and bred like cattle.
One does have to wonder why Saudi and other Muslim women are not at the barricades for this.
Well there’s a change in stripes-
How? Savvy person that you are? I’m shocked! I would have thought you more international.
I’m not “international” simply because I don’t understand Spanish.
🙂
No, because I would have thought your travels through blogosphere would have introduced you to translating ‘bots.
Not knowing another language doesn’t determine your ‘international-ness/less’.
And as much as this back and forth serves to up the hits to a very enlightening blog- I think now would be a good time for me to leave you with the last word. Our hostess may be ready to blow a casket right about now…
The floors all yours…
Salaam!
Quite an amusing character you are 🙂 , not sure when and where I have provoked you 🙂
Cheers!
If you can’t see where you provoked her and every reader on this blog then you are your a** up your you know what. You are an insensitive, troll And, you know what a troll is because you act like one perfectly. You must have been accused of being one many times because you are quite aware of how to do it. Go back and read all of your posts. Do you see one word where you are writing that you think the actions affecting these little girls is negative and you feel that it should not happen and should be stopped? Enough said.
I am not American either.
Actually, I consider myself a citizen of the Planet Earth.
All human suffering on the planet concerns me. All evil done by men on this planet concerns me. I consider it my duty as a human being to protest against all transgressions of evil. And if they were committed on another planet I would still think the same.
In some so-called ”primitive” societies it was considered a disgraceand a shame if a woman would get her children too soon after each other? Some African tribes considered it shocking if a mother became pregnant again in less than 3 years. They had the wisdom to make sure a woman was fully developed before she had her first baby, (childbrides often die in childbirth, or produce defected children). Not only did they make sure a pregnant woman was cared for and got the best possible nutricion, but men refrained from having sex until three years had passed so that their wife would have fully recovered.
The maori men of the Pacific used to stop co-habiting with their wife until she had weaned her last child. They breastfed for about 2,5 or 3 years.
Breastfeeding children for something like three years is common throughout Africa as well; a woman who is lactating is much less likely to become pregnant again.
It seems to me the less ”primitive” we get, the more degenerated and stupid we get.
of course, it’s wrong to marry anyone to someone with a communicable disease. however, early marriage is allowed in islam. i don’t think age restrictions should be imposed just because of a few bad people. look at the ridiculous situation whereby in algeria a man has to be 21 in order to get married. look how many years he’s exposed to temptation because his country makes haram what Allah made halal.
justmoi,
just because early marriage was supposedly allowed 1400 years ago, does not make it ok now. you would hope that as humans we have progressed since then. society and culture is not stagnant..it is constantly evolving and changing. slavery was also around during the time of the koran and the bible, however that doesn’t make it any more morally justifiable.
this story is so sad…i feel so sorry for that poor child. The only reason he is “marrying” that poor girl is to sexually abuse her, and in his sick, twisted mind this is the religiously correct way of doing so. pedophiles are everywhere, and without restrictions things like this will always happen. my heart goes out to her.
If ”early marriage” (as you call it, I call it rape of underage children) is allowed in Islam, then Islam is wrong.
Men can deal very well with temptation. There’s no need to diminish the capabillities of mentally healthy men.
I had no problems controlling myself when I was 21.
It’s not Allah who makes rape of children halal, it’s men who like to rape children who make it halal. Religion is an artificial construct by men. Men make sure that ”God” tells them to do what they want to do.
In this case raping of little girls, and infecting them with their venerial diseases, probably contracted while raping other women, or visiting prostitutes.
All blessed by Allah. (according to the men who do it)
Any sane person would claim these actions are against the will of Allah.
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What’s the age that a woman can marry and give her virginity to a man? Is there a concensus among women on when they feel it would be appropriate? While trying to find my lineage, I came across a marriage certificate here in the state I still reside in? On it, it was stated that the woman was at least 12 years of age and the man at least 14 years of age. People will say that was because people died at younger ages back then but also, the schooling was limited. They likely were farmers and ranchers. It seemed like though, that all my grandparents had married at about 18 years of age. There are determining factors these days with the advent of the educational system and how long it can keep individuals in the educational system persuing degrees in education. Ensuring employeement security, as much as possible, before marrying is also a consideration even for those not pursuing “higher education”. Here, we attend the “required” educational system until the ages of 17 or 18. Meantime, what is going on? There are people who are being used and abused, even in their own homes, what a shame. As a child, we the siblings, wouldn’t drink out of the same cup because we’d say, “you drank from it, now it has germs”. Then watching television, you see people would do the “French kiss” and think, “Oh, their swapping saliva”. And then the call for everyone to turn their heads as to not watch. And then the wondering, “How do they do that?”. It can arouse. So does the attitude come to try that at the opportunity no matter how serious or not the relationship may be and be subject to the consequences? What of the religous learning? The virtues and the honor have to be accommodated. Would you consider a woman, decent mothers, wives and women of high repute, to give their opinion of the age a womans instincts would be fit to marry as a virgin to her husband? It was said that the Prophet Mohammed took an orphaned girl, that she would be the virgin wife he had not had. Does the Koran state at what age he actually had her or mention anything of her size? Women aren’t here to be hurt, used or abused. We can learn from what happens and conclude if it’s right or not. Spare the misery.
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I think this post is not about what any religion prescribes; I have no wish to use veils and feel no need to do it, but if it’s someone else’s wish to do so… who am I to impose my thought on the matter?
This is about what every religion and every law permits: abuse. As long as the stronger is free to do as he wishes, there is no justice.
If he’s refused, he’ll come to South Asia and secretly marry another child here.
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Just one question:
If the little girl was vaccinated against Hepatitis B,
would that not solve the medical issue ?
I am just wondering why this possibility has not
been mentioned in the article nor in the comments.
(Do not get me wrong please, this “marriage” is still
a criminal act of pedophilia in my opinion)
You think you can make people fool by putting your name “European woman”?
If you acknowledge that this is an act of pedophilia then what’s the point of making a silly argument?
Try commenting with your true Identity next time 🙂
European Woman–that is a good point about the Hepatitis B part (though depending on the strain the vaccine may or may not offer protection); however, there are other medical issues as well as moral ones about a 12 year old being mature enough for marriage, sex, and pregnancy.
Usman,
do you think this is paedophilia? Do you think that when Mohammed had sex with Aisha at nine years of age that this was paedophilia?
Anyone with a sexually transmitted disease should not be allowed to marry, especially a vergin who has not yet been with anyone. I mean how awful is that? Your just getting to be a woman and then your told you have to marry a grandpa that has a sexually transmitted disease. That means even if he dies she’ll still have disease to live with. And even if she get’s a vaccine her child can still get it.
Vaccines still are a waste of time. She shouldn’t have to get a vaccine, he should have never of gotten it in the first place if he ever wanted to marry. I would never get a vaccine for a STD or have my children get one.
If they don’t have sex till there married they wont have to ever worry about an STD….unless it’s a situation like this, which will never happen in America.
European woman, marrying (I bet there was money involved which really makes it ”selling”) a 12 year old girl as a sex-slave and breeding cow to an old man is wrong.
Forcing a twelve year old girl to be raped and infected with his sexually transmitted disease is wrong.
Vaccines are useless. They are the worst researched branch of medicine. They are the bargain basement technology of medicine (not my words but those of a doctor at Merxs) There is way more evidence that vaccines make you sick (including the sicknesses they are supposed to ”protect” you from) and cause cancer, than there is evidence they have any beneficial effect.
To vaccine the girl is useless, and actually dangerous. To propose doing it so she can be subjected to rape by an old man without having to feel anything bad is going on is plain evil!
Or really, really stupid.
Take your pick.
European woman: I wonder if it’s true that you are european, and even a woman, not to realize that what you wrote above is wrong and inaccetable, as among european (women and men) all this is out-of-law and morally condamned.
You are speaking about medical issue to let a child be raped by an old, evil, shameless male (I cannot call him “man”).
The point is not to prevent her from taking a disease, but to prevent that crimes like this go on!!It’s not “marriage”, it’s slavery! It’s not “early”, it’s paedophilia!!
And if there is the need to point it on, it’s even very very sad.
It will be the good, honest, brave, respectful, beautiful women of Islam who will dispel all of the vile practices to the gutter where they belong.. It will take time, a lot of effort, a lot of trouble and definitely strife. A lot of confrontation, a feminine revolution for Muslim women who in turn will then protect their own children from the evils of these male dominated society… For that is exactly what it says on the “TIN”…
Love is the key and the path… not paedophilia..
Hepatitis B is transmitted by body fluids, including but not exclusively as an STD. The hepatitis B vaccine has been available since 1981, and is safe enough that hospitals require doctors to have it, and regular boosters every 5 years, as a condition of employment.
It has been shown to provide immunity for 25 years in those who do respond to the initial set of shots. The risk of dying from the vaccine is the same as the risk of crossing paths with a duck billed platypus while crossing a road in North America.
If this marriage is to happen and be consummated it is better she is protected against Hep B and that she receives further immunoglobulin treatment if necessary in late pregnancy to prevent tranmission to the fetus, which is otherwise a very high likelihood.
STDs are common enough in a variety of forms that prohibiting anyone who ever had one from marrying would be exclusive of large parts of a population, including those who did get genital lice from a toilet seat, or genital warts, or a yeast infection, or anything else from their one conjugal partner who maybe had premarital sex with someone else. Gonorrhea and syphilis are now highly treatable, and chlamydia is a challenge but also treatable. Genital herpes and HIV are the most challenging to manage but still are managed.
The issues here are more about minimum age for marriage, age disparity, lack of genuine consent, money, and then disease. Where there is disease in one partner it needs to be treated and prevented in both.
No vaccines are safe.
I found this difficult to believe at first but when I started to seriously look into it, (due to the swine flu media scare) I have come to see that vaccines are fake medicine. They do not protect but induce sickness.
Vaccines have always been contested by doctors and healthcare workers, since their very beginning. Their history has been falsefied since the beginning, some outbreaks of smallpocks consisted almost solely of previously ”immunised” people. But the hospital books were doctored to make it look different.
Anybody who wants to know more about vaccines and especially if they have children should read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Saying-Vaccines-Dr-Sherri-Tenpenny/dp/0979091047/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271424242&sr=1-1
Please, be serius! In all countries where vaccines are compulsory some illness don’t even exist anymore!
Ah, yes the good old days, when polio was a crippler, literally, measles a death sentence, mumps a fertility control measure and tetanus a rather nasty way to go.
No, wait, that still happens in African countries, especially the measles and polio ones.
Oh, and they are making a comeback in England where well-intended parents were mislead by media reports on a preliminary scientific study on autism and vaccines.
Or, true, former Play girls like Jenny McCarthy are so far advanced scientifically they have prevented and cured autism…which oops still affects a growing number of children, including their own, sadly not cured of anything one.
It is much better to die of cervical cancer than to have the HPV vaccine, because usually by that time one has finished with ones reproductive organs anyway–no, wait that is more uterine cancer, which is alas not so easily prevented, detected, treated.
Also, self-published doctors are far more reliable than those whose work has been subjected to scientific peer-review, and they aren’t in it for the money from amazon type mass sales, as opposed to scientists who are so stupid as to work for paltry salaries in university labs, where they get no money/per scientific article published.
I am always so glad to have such information shared by people so much better informed about medicine, and science, than idiot MD PhDs who do work in university labs, and have clinical experience.
Right on, Chiara!!!
Thank you. 🙂
Aafke,
I will disagree with you. As a grandmother who has been vaccinated against many of the childhood illnesses, a mother who has vaccinated her children with everything she could and a grandmother who’s grandchildren have been vaccinated all all without ill effects I will disagree with you. Living in a country where we are free of so many things because of vaccinations I will disagree with you.
Excellent credentials and an excellent point about living in countries where we are protected by vaccines.
Travelling in Morocco woke me up to the reality of polio as a common occurrence.
As I stated above, there are other issues that are more germaine to this girl’s situation as described in the post by Eman.
Look, the big issue with the vaccine thing is: Vaccines for illnesses are great but there is no reason to even have vaccines for an STD. If kids can keep there pants up and there skirts down it wont happen.
Don’t think I’m cold hearted, my sisters baby died from one. My sister was messing around at 14 and got warts, the warts passed onto the baby and sufficated it in the night. Now thanks to her dying the U.S. knows this can happen and now screens all pregnant women.
My niece died for a reason. She died not because my sister didn’t get vaccinated, she died because my sister skrewed around. And something good came of it. The babies siblings from other woman the male slept around with survived. And yes my sister was a fan of protection.
The best form of protection against getting pregnant and getting an STD is to not have sex till your married. In the case of this child I think people need to bring it to more media attention not just in saudi, but to the U.S. and other countries. Hopefully that would deture the government from ignoring it’s peoples disgust.
Usman, you are quite disgusting posting something like that.
“disgusting”??
It is photography, captures moments of all kinds!
is that your families typical customary dish Usman?
Chiara wrote:
“If this marriage is to happen and be consummated it is better she is protected against Hep B etc”
Chiara, that is exactly what I meant, since I am
realistic enough to realise that certain criminal
Saudi customs are not going to disappear overnight.
Actually, I thought I had expressed that quite clearly in my short comment, Aafke, Stefania, had I not ???
And Usman, Stefania, there is really no need to question my identity, these comments made me laugh.
European Woman–yes I thought your comment was very clear, and realistic while not in the least condoning child marriages. Since this one seems to be a done deal, and if she is past menarche consummation will soon follow, better to “heptovac” her before she has sexual relations for the first time.
from the original post..
“If only there was a law that would put an end to this once and for all”.
There is already Law in place.. Quranic and Sharia law which due to Mohammed marrying Aisha at such a young age, consummating the marriage at an hydrophilic age, then this is the law of Allah correct?
Be good.. Love is the Key..
from the original post..
“If only there was a law that would put an end to this once and for all”.
There is already Law in place.. Quranic and Sharia law which due to Mohammed marrying Aisha at such a young age, consummating the marriage at an paedophile age, then this is the law of Allah correct?
Be good.. Love is the Key.
i really feel extremely disgusted and sick to my stomach after hearing this—but i am more angry at you saudi women for not getting off your butts and going out the streets to protest this brutality. i dont care if protests are not allowed in your country—first of all a minor girl is being forced to marry this pedophile which is technically rape and worse yet, this pedophile has a dangerous disease—how can this happen in the heartland of islam??? what if he had an equally dangerous disease such as HIV?? does the father of this girl know what he is doing to his daughter??? does he know that just last week, in yemen, a minor girl died when his very much older pedophile old husband forcibly raped her anally as well as in the front??? as a muslim woman and a physician, i am really sick to my stomach that this crime is being allowed to take place in the heartland of islam—as of you saudi women, life is not just eating, getting fat, and producing babies, its also about getting educated and spreading such education among illeterate women in your country so that they can stand up for their rights. i am not asking you not to stop your regular shopping sprees in dubai and europe, only that to cut it back a little and spend a bit more time and energy to combat this oppression. it will mean that you may be ostracized but eventually you have to change your status in society otherwise these bastard tribal primitive stone aged apes will finish you off—remember it could had been your daugter or sister as well.
If anyone is sick, it’s you Rita, Shabana, Marcus…etc whatever your name is. Your comments that I have deleted can only have been produced by someone who needs to see a therapist.
saudiwoman.
I am a little confused and you have upset me slightly, for I have no idea what it is your talking about… Maybe you can explain further to help me understand what it is you feeling… But censorships and removals of posts???? Sounds just like the rules and rulers you live under..
Freedom of expression and freedom of speech..?? Obviously not.. How sad..
Anyone who uses profanity will have their comments deleted and so will people who use different names and genders when they are obviously the same person because as blog admin I can see all your IP addresses.
Hi Eman,
as we are all coming from different countries/cultures where the sensibility on what considered “offensive” can be quite different, could please explain us what do you mean for “profanity”? Thanks
trust me what I consider to be profane is the same that the majority of cultures would too. Anything that is hate based on racism, or refers to sexual acts, and feces will always be deleted. That kind of language is abuse of freedom of speech and contributes nothing to the discussion.
I often don’t agree with what I read and sometimes I consider some comments off topics, irrelevant or a little bit arrogant/intollerant. However I didn’t read anything really offensive that’s why I asked you this question, but maybe I lost those comments you meant.
there were not any… Not that anyone else could see or read.. only the truth.. Peace Laura..
I suppose there is a little confusion in all these comments over this topic, which we all are very sensitive about. European woman: personally I only wanted to higlight that paedophilia is worst then anything else, but of course even knowingly transmitting deseases is awful!
And then: I didn’t get it quite clearly why saudiwoman commented like that about Marcus and Shabana… don’t read anything about Rita… did I miss something? Don’t they totally agree with the spirit of the original post? Please let me understand!
As Salaamu Alaikum Dearest SaudiWoman:
Insha Allah you and your family are well.
SW, I am a long time reader of your blog. And I occasionally comment. I have been following the comment trail on this post with interest. Especially since it comes so close to the one that AmericanBedu recently wrote that caused so much controversy. I followed those 100+ comments closely, too.
When I saw “Marcus” as the first commenter, my initial reaction was “here we go again.” “Throwing off our veils” and running into the streets will not solve anything at all, as you know. We must find some way to address these issues within the framework of Islam.
Certain topics and issues in the Middle East and Muslim world are problematic, do make our hearts hurt, and make our stomachs turn, and they do need to be discussed. But – they need to be discussed rationally and intelligently. Otherwise, how will we find a solution?
This is your blog and your space, but I have some naseehah. Please take it in loving intention it is given.
Anyone who slanders the Prophet saw or Allaah’s religion – at that point, they lose their “freedom of speech” on my blog. It is obvious that some people just troll blogs from KSA and also look for posts that have to do with plural marriage, child brides, niqaab, etc., so they can spit their venomous opinions out. And the majority of these commenters are not Muslim. It’s one thing if they wish to join a conversation with interfaith love and respect in order to help the peoples of the world. But when they are just looking for a platform to get their hate off, that’s when I delete their comments and don’t provide them with that opportunity.
I’m sorry that commenter called you that name SW. I’m so glad you deleted it.
Insha Allah you will be well and continue to write about the important issues. There are many of us, Muslim and non Muslim, who love your blog.
Take care sister
Fiamanallah
Safiyyah
Safiyyah,
I completely agree but sometimes I can’t keep up.
Safiyyah,
hi there, I hope I find you well…
May I ask, if the information regarding Mohammed (for example) is true and factual, then how can that be slander?
peace..
Because when it come to Ayisha’s age at the time of marriage, no one is sure. Historians say that she must have been in her late teens (17 -18) while Al Bukhri (Hadeeth specialist) states that Ayisha told someone that she was nine. While there is no direct Quranic verse or hadeeth that says its ok to marry children. So to state as a “fact” that the prophet (PBUH) married a child or advocates child marriages is simply not true.
All ages at that time were an estimate because people did not celebrate birthdays they did not know exactely how old they were.
Neither were years counted by numbers as they are now.
The hadith that Aisha was 7 when she married the prophet was told by a very old man in his dotage who at that time lived in Persia.
If you compare historical data it is impossible that Aisha was that young, she must have been between 18 and 21.
I’m a journalist of the Netherlands and will interview Wajeha al Huwaider tomorrow about the role of blogs and you tube in your country (radio). I saw your beautiful blogsite on the net and I’m curious:
What are you writing about? Are there topics you will never write about? Why not/ Why do you write on internet? Is you blog ever been blocked/ Why?
Would be nice if you can respond,
Good luck with your site!
Do you know other woman-blog sites in your country?
As a reader I appreciate it when the blog moderator deletes offensive comments, and personal attacks. It keeps the commenting on topic and of interest to all, and avoids the clutter of unpleasantness that ultimately detracts from the post, the discussion, and the blog.
Thanks for taking this approach, Eman.
Jennifer–I am sorry your niece died, but in the situation described in the post it would be remiss not to vaccinate the wife against Hepatitis B and not to take appropriate further measures during pregnancy, labour, and delivery. This child and her child should not have to be ill or die with Hepatitis B because the husband has it. He may have acquired it from a blood transfusion for all we know. The point is he has it, and Hepatitis B is transmitted through body fluids. Body fluids are exchanged during intercourse, through the placenta, and during labour and delivery. No need to wait around for mother and baby to get an incurable illness when there are vaccines and immunoglobulins available.
Sorry, I’m not sure why my most recent comment (April 20 11:49pm) jumped up out of order. Hopefully this one isn’t similarly afflicted.
saudiwoman
April 19, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Because when it come to Ayisha’s age at the time of marriage, no one is sure. Historians say that she must have been in her late teens (17 -18) while Al Bukhri (Hadeeth specialist) states that Ayisha told someone that she was nine. While there is no direct Quranic verse or hadeeth that says its ok to marry children. So to state as a “fact” that the prophet (PBUH) married a child or advocates child marriages is simply not true………………………
HI Saudigirl.. always a pleasure and I hope you are well…
According to very nearly every scholar I have studied with and much of the Islamic and Muslim faith scripture confirm that Aisha was a crawling baby when Mohammed made his first approach and took fancy to her… 6 yrs of age when marriage took place and consummation of the marriage when Aisha was nine.
Would anyone like to provide further evidence that Aisha was in her late teens or even in her 20`s when she married Mohammed, I would be extremely interested to educate further…
peace
Give me one hadeeth or Quranic verse that states that she was a child at marriage besides the report that she claims she was in Al Bukhari. Those scholars you “claim” to have studied under, what are their names and can you provide a direct quote from them that depends on anything besides the hadeeth in Al Bukhari? The only sure thing about Ayisha’s marriage to the Prophet (PBUH) was that she was the only virgin bride. All his other wives were divorcees or widows. Also she was his second favourite wife. His favourite wife was Khadija who was older than him by more than a decade. And in the extremely off chance Ayisha was actually nine, that doesn’t mean anything because it was a different time and age. The prophet (PBUH) also let a 14 year old lead the Islamic army against the Romans in a battle that the Muslims won. Do you see any 14 year old generals around?
Don’t slander my religion, there’s only so much I can tolerate but to say that the prophet was a pedophile is disrespectful, distasteful, and blasphemy and only shows your own intolerance and prejudices.
HI there, I hope you are well…
So Aisha and Al Bukhari scripture is false?
“Saudi woman” has a very important point. It is offensive to suggest that Islam supports pedophilia. I’m not Islamic, but have read a few things and don’t think Ayisha’s age is that important or necessarily accurate as some in the west suggest.
I believe a book is being quoted here, at length, (rather than original writing) that criticises faiths other than mainstream protestantism b/c the discussion of Ayisha is almost verbatim from that book, called “What Is The Difference?” which purports to objectively delineate other faiths.
In fact it ultimately faults non Christians after a cursory study of each of the other major religions. IF it were fair, it would allow those of each faith to describe their religion and let us all decide based on truer facts. (It misstated Catholicism’s doctrine, cited no Catholic authorities or sources, and I am positive of that.)
So perhaps Ayisha’s virginity was stressed by that author, and maybe it’s important, but that doesn’t make Islam any weirder than a lot of other faiths. Virginity and “purity” are emphasized in many religions.
As a Catholic, my religion harps on that a lot too. (See Immaculate conception, etc). So, I’d hold off on telling a Muslim what THEIR faith means or says.
I am frequently told what my faith is, and it is ALWAYS by someone who is NOT of my faith. Isn’t that odd? Non-Catholics telling me the problems THEY see in MY faith? At times, it’s very offensive. I’m not trying to convert anyone. Similarly, why do you care what saudi woman or Muslims believe as long as they are not harming you? If you want to argue about jihad, I could see discussions of that. But she does not seem to be preaching to you. Why put her on the defensive?
I see this “pedophile” discussion a lot. Many priests abused children, and that was very wrong, and so was the Church’s response. But I don’t expect people to accuse my RELIGION as promoting it. (“Don’t confuse the message with the imperfect messengers” etc).
Shouldn’t we simply “spread” our own message of love, tolerance and redemption, with our behavior?
Spitfire8 – Look, the reason why the religion is being brought up is because the religion teaches having sex with children. Everyone has every right to there own religion; I agree, but if it’s causing young children and there babies to die just because the religion tells them that it’s ok..isn’t exactly appropriate. It’s kinda like the JW’s who kill there own children because they refuse to use blood transfusions.
The religion isn’t really the problem, it’s those making the laws from the religion.
Oh, and it is very easy to understand why you have so much problems with people not liking catholics, they raveged lands, raped woman and children. They murdered millions of “protestants” for “protesting” there religion. And let us not forget they were responsable for killing off just about all the druids. The catholics killed my people and I really can’t forget that. Oh, by the way…worshipping false Gods is a sin. That means praying to Mary and the other saints. The catholics also have the most tainted form of the bible.
The catholics are also the only religion that says babbies can go to hell if there not baptized.
Don’t worry, knowone is descriminating against the saudi, it’s the catholics that are a real topic. Notice knowone replied to your comment? Knowone here is against there religion, knowone, like I stated before it’s those that make the laws based on the contrivercial topic of child marriage.
Sure Marcus, I wrote a brilliant
post on the subject explaining with many different historical facts how Aischa could never have been as young as is stated nowadays, follow this link:
http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/how-old-was-aicha/
thanks,
very much appreciated.
HI there, I hope you are well…
So Aisha and Al Bukhari scripture is false?
They aren’t scripture. They are attempts at gathering as much information about that time as possible. Al Bukhri gathered hadeeths, he is not a prophet. The main resource is the Quran and like I said before nothing in the Quran mentions child marriages and not even any direct reports of the prophet (PBUH). And as much as I hate repeating myself, I will say it once more, Ayisha is the only wife of the prophet that is even a virgin, never mind a child. All his other wives were adult women who were either divorced or widows; that hardly fits a profile of someone who condones child marriages.
I found this was interesting from Muslim responding quite rightly it seems to show it is perfectly Islamic to marry girls once they reach puberty but also Islamic to marry girls who have yet to reach puberty and the marriage is consummated once the girl does reach her cycles…
http://muslim-responses.com/The_Age_of_Marriage_in_Islam/The_Age_Marriage_in_Islam_
So? That only confirms what I have been saying plus I disagree with how they explained the part about wives who don’t menstruate meaning that they are immature. It is much more likely to include women who for whatever reason could have stopped menstruating like breastfeeding, health conditions and menopause.
Hi there, hope your well..
So???
It shows Quranic scripture which advocates child marriages and consummation on puberty… And I do not know if this includes those females who have stopped their cycles for whatever reason, including old age as you say… It could quite well encompass all of the above.. quite easily..
Peace..
According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. An American historian Denise Spellberg stated that “these specific references to the bride’s age reinforce Aisha’s pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity.”
This issue of her virginity was of great importance to early historians who supported the Abbasid Caliphate. These historians considered that as Muhammad’s only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate over the succession to Muhammad.
Aisha stayed in her parents’ home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.
Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.
The marriage was delayed until after the Hijra, or migration to Medina, in 622; Aisha and her older sister Asma bint Abi Bakr only moved to Medina after Muhammad had already migrated there. After this, the wedding was celebrated very simply. The sources do not offer much more information about Aisha’s childhood years, but mention that after the wedding, she continued to play with her toys, and that Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games… She definitely wasnt 19 or in her early 20`s thats for sure..
“She definitely wasnt 19 or in her early 20`s thats for sure”
She definitely could have been 19 or 20. Again the only piece of evidence that she was a child is someone saying they heard someone say that they heard someone say that they heard Ayisha say that she was nine. About her playing with dolls, she was known for her playful and light spirit, she used to have horse races with the prophet (PBUH) and that’s a fact. The prophet referred to her fondly up to his death as “the redhead”. And the “traditional” sources you fall back on are the same traditional sources who bend over backwards to support cultural and tribal laws even when they aren’t part of Islam.
I’m sorry, my comment is double and at another spot, I don’t know what happened here.
Its one that has the weight of two 🙂
saudiwoman, hi there..
I understand and I hear you.. However, the world watches and see’s quite evidently with all manner of media exposure which advocates child marriages within Islam. We all understand that you and many others claim otherwise as you quite rightly point out and we all try to educate ourselves and learn from the info provided from many many sources, for and against…
We see the horrid writings of the Ayatolla of Iran condoning all manner of paedophilia activity..
We see the writings and Hadith and the life and ways of Mohammed… Mosques and scholars agree, Aisha was a child bride, some dont.. But not many dont… and The Quranic scripture taken into context advocates child marriages..
Islamic culture and customs passed down over centuries advocate these acts and as we see decree Sharia Law as their evidence, with Aisha scripture making a firm part of creating such laws..
Its a long haul, however, in time, Islam will have to do away with these barbaric acts, or many folk will leave the faith and fight against it…
Peace and have a good day..
“The Quranic scripture taken into context advocates child marriages”
What context? It’s your type that try to paint an ugly picture of Islam and confuse culture and tradition with Islam by using propaganda words like “advocates” and ” Mosques and scholars agree” when its not true. Every Muslim knows that the Prophet wed only adult women who were divorcees and widows with the only exception being Ayisha. What you’re doing is ugly by stealthily poisoning relations and fogging the truth. You are just as bad as the pedophiles who fuzz up the truth for their own purposes.
We all know that this kid is on his “mission”. And for last several posts he/she is impersonating with different names and gender trying his/her best to engage with different commentators and right here, finally , you are giving him/her exactly what he wants: the attention. No matter, how much you and other try, you will never convince him. If anybody is serious to learn, the first thing he will do is to get a copy of Quran and read it himself instead of spending hours on internet to dig irrelevant links and videos.
After years of debating with christian missionaries, I came to conclusion that some folks debate just because they want to debate, learning and education is not their point. They want just what they want.
My own patience ran out when I was confronted with a duo while walking on a street in Toronto.
Duo: “Do you know the Trinity is in Quran?”
Me: “Where?”
Duo: “(بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم)b-ismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm”
Me: “SO?,Where is Trinity?”
Duo: “Allah, Rahman, and Rahim…,Three in One.., hence Trinity”
Gosh!
Because the Quran must be understood along with the Sunnah…
And in addition to previous comment it is my request to you to spend your valuable time in writing some informative post for us instead of engage and giving the loons their joyride.
I think a discussion is always a well spent time even though all the partecipants ramain of their own opinion.
It depends what you mean by discussion.
…a discussion is a discussion…you cannot pretend that people don’t say what you don’t like…first because I don’t know what you like to hear then I just say what I think
HI Laura… hope your well…
Of course, folk will always say things we dont like.
“I do not like or agree with what you say, but will fight to the death to defend your right to do so”.
Peace.
IF LIBERTY MEANS ANYTHING AT ALL, IT MEANS THE RIGHT TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR. – GEORGE ORWELL
Marcus
Yup Orwell meant unsubstantiated propaganda and insults when he said that.
I take it when you say the “Loons” you mean the those who condone child marriages?
Usman
thanks I’m taking your advice.
Wow, that is crazy! Do you know of any place I can find the Quran (I don’t know how to say it) for free?
I would like to study it for future conversation with people who read it.
I like to have an understanding of all religion even though I myself am a Christian….well, I don’t go to church because all churches I have been to are corrupted. I mean most churches ex-communicate people for being Homo’s, that’s not Christian at all. I like to believe, study and worship God in an untainted environment. ^_^
Please, I would love to learn more.
Jennifer–it is a good idea to use an online source of the Quran, as you can read different translations to English at once and get the meaning more fully. The University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement is an excellent resource for relevant texts.
It has the Quran in the 3 main English translations side by side, an Index to it, and the Hadith with a search function as well.
For the English translations and those in other languages, as well as the Arabic and the romanized Arabic the Quran Browser is good.
Since the Quran contains many of the same stories as the Old Testament but not in the same linear pattern as the Bible it helps to use the Index to find the analogous passages. I usually suggest that Christians start with the “Chapter” or Surah 19 Maryam/Mary which is the story of Mary and Isa/Jesus (And John the Baptist, Zachariah, etc).
Also, my own favourite Surah which was taught to me by Muslim students of mine is Surah 109:
(as translated by Yusuf Ali:)
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way [religion], and to me mine.
I am very pleased to see you include the Hadith and Sunnah which of course must be read in conjunction with the Quran for a complete understanding…
Peace..
this is interesting..
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/04/suing-muhammad.html
Thank you all! I stayed up all night last night reading the Quran and was very surprised.
The Quran said that the Christians and the Jews and the Muslims are all going to see the Lord and it always brought up peace.
The Quran also; talked about the things that happened in the Bible, I did notice however that it didn’t go into detail about the stories of Moses and Abraham and Jacob. I also noticed that the Quran came after the Torah and Bible because it talked about the Bible and the Torah, I am so very fascinated by the Quran, I never knew….I was taught that the Quran was evil and was a non-peaceful, blasphemous book but really it’s the opposite.
We (Muslims, Christians and Jews) are all part of the same religion, but branched to different countries and religions, we should be getting along…why aren’t we? Why do we fight amongst ourselves? Why are us Christians in America taught against the Muslims? Why? It doesn’t make sense and it makes me said. 😦
HI there Jennifer, I hope you are well..
I found this link and thought you might find this interesting considering this will be a pretty huge case across the world… Please understand the story and check the reasons why there will be a legal challenge and a pretty big fight with The letter written to the Law firm in Saudi Arabia representing the descendants of the Prophet Mohammed and also asks for certain demands…
Hope your well…
Marcus, a Briton. lol 😉
“Why are us Christians in America taught against the Muslims?” ~ What nonsense! I am an American and there was little mention of Muslims or Islam, good or bad in either any schools or churches I attended. Because of this I had no preconceived notions of Muslims or Islam when I reached adulthood. This is more a reflection of the opinions of the particular church you belonged to.
Any opinions I have now of Muslims and Islam are based on actual accounts that are in news stories and blogs like these. Frankly, there is very little in American newspapers about these stories ~ more in foreign newspapers and on the internet.
As an American woman, I am appalled (and saddened) that freedoms I take for granted are denied so many women in the Muslim world. At a time when the world has finally united in it’s rejection of slavery, so many Muslim women and girls are living in a state of virtual slavery.
Most American women do not hate Islam ~ but we feel that it is being used as a tool to subjugate women and we are frustrated that we can do nothing to help you. And, yes, we get very angry when we hear about female genital mutilations, pedophilia in the form of child brides, etc. that so many Muslim countries practice. But taught to hate Muslims? No. Our hearts go out to you. No women in the world were ever “given” rights ~ women have always had to fight for them.
Hi,
all this discussion is very interesting at least from a cultural point of view regardless everyone belief.
I admit my ingnorance about Islam about this, a question that I would like to ask is who decide (or decided) what is or not part of Islam?
In Christianity what happens is that what Jesus did and said was written centuries after is death then the Roman church picked up here and there from all what was written and decided that that was the “official” version. Of course this is not reliable from any historical/rational point of view and choice is just between not to believe or believe being conscious that is just an act of faith. Even when we talk about “normal” historical and well documented fact scholars are always discussing and often don’t agree about which one has to be considered the real version.
What I wanted to say is that something written more than 1000 years ago cannot be read as an immovable truth. This doesn’t mean that the discussion about religious topic has to be closed, but of course those document cannot be read “literally”. They have to be analyze considering the historical context and with the awareness they cannot give us detailed informations such the age of a person.
There is only one source, one narration by one very old senile man which claims that he heard that somebody told somebody that Aischa said she had been married at nine years old.
Now this man’s narrations ( I forget his name offhand) are generally considered reliable, but he moved away to Persia, and when he was very old, and half-senile, he came up with this story. Which was never told amongst the people of Arabia, until centuries later through Bukhari.
This narration was never an Arabic narration, he never told it while he lived in Arabia, nobody else from people near the prophet narrated this story.
It is not regarded as a reliable narration.
The hadith are not all equally reliable, and this one is considered by many scholars as unreliable.
Of course the scholars who like the idea of marrying underage baby-girls support it, but they have motives. Scholars are not saints, they have their own agenda’s, their own goals. They live of religion, they have their own interests, or the interests of the people who pay them in mind.
That’s why people should learn about their religions and make up their own minds and not blindly follow fallible and selfinterested humans.
There is only one source, one narration by one very old senile man which claims that he heard that somebody told somebody that Aischa said she had been married at nine years old.
Now this man’s narrations ( I forget his name offhand) are generally considered reliable, but he moved away to Persia, and when he was very old, and half-senile, he came up with this story. Which was never told amongst the people of Arabia, until centuries later through Bukhari.
This narration was never an Arabic narration, he never told it while he lived in Arabia, nobody else from people near the prophet narrated this story.
It is not regarded as a reliable narration.
The hadith are not all equally reliable, and this one is considered by many scholars as unreliable.
Of course the scholars who like the idea of marrying underage baby-girls support it, but they have motives. Scholars are not saints, they have their own agenda’s, their own goals. They live of religion, they have their own interests, or the interests of the people who pay them in mind.
That’s why people should learn about their religions and make up their own minds and not blindly follow fallible and selfinterested humans.
I am not painting an ugly picture, only trying to openly debate the issues, I do not wish to insult anyone, if I have I apologise.. However, please allow us all to look at the big picture here.. We have Quranic scripture advocating child marriages… And the marriage consummated once the girl reaches puberty, which is womanhood… Aisha could well have reaches her meses at 9 years of age and would then have met all criteria…
I would say that the Hadith tells the same.. Once the girl reaches womanhood/puberty. This is not propaganda, this is what the world knows as Islamic scripture which must be read and understood to understand the Quran and Sharia Law … Aisha the exception and her scripture is regarded as solid and educated and as we know used to make Sharia Law…..
The Quran does not advocate or even mention child marriages. It only prohibits sexual relations before puberty which is actually the opposite of advocating child marriages.
“I would say that the Hadith tells the same.. Once the girl reaches womanhood/puberty”
What hadeeth? Give me one hadeeth by the prophet that even mentions let alone condones child marriages.
You can get it free over the internet. Just google it.
Oops. To many links to the Quran. I went into moderation. LOL 🙂
Strictly in the interest of accuracy, Catholics have never said that babies go to Hell. They used to say that unbaptized babies went to Limbo, which is why babies are baptized very soon after birth. They have now revoked the idea of Limbo, with the assumption that innocent babies (ie all) go to Heaven.
yes, this is correct, I also heard that the idea of Limbo was revocated some years ago.
LOL, revoked? So, what happened before that? Oops sorry dead babies we changed our mind, you’ve been in limbo for thousands of years but we decided your free to go now. Why would they still baptize babies if they are going to heaven then? lol
well I’m not an expert about this but I think it was just a reinterpretation of the scripture then it didn’t exist even before the official “revokation”
Jennifer–My wording was overly strong. In fact the current Pope, in 2007 while he was still head of theological doctrine, approved a current of thinking that infants have the hope of Salvation even if they die prior to baptism, the point of which is to guarantee Salvation from original sin, and to make the person’s future salvation based on their deeds, and repentance, not on original sin. Catholicism postulates that babies who die prior to baptism are spared Hell, may hopefully be allowed into Heaven, and alternately may live in a blissful state in Infants’ Limbo though not blessed with all the beatitudes. Salvation may be granted by God, and that is the hope.
Hope that clears the matter up for you.
LOL! The world has never been united against slavery, where have you been? There has been slavery since the Jews were brought into Egypt by Joseph. There is still slavery, even in America there is a thing called sex slavery. It happens when young girls are stolen off the streets and then sold to the black market where she is then shipped off to other countries that still use sex slaves.
Where have you been??? Slaves are all over the world, open your eyes.
And the not ever being tot Muslims are evil thing? We(people in the US) were sent a DVD in the mail showing how evil the Muslim nation is, it was on the news…where have you been?
Our news is cluttered with all the bad things The Muslims do, we’re tot it from the get-go. Just because you’ve never heard of it means nothing, you have the internet obviously…so why don’t you go find the sites that talk about what the media teaches us.
And yes, most churches preach against Muslims. This is because of what God said about Muslims because of Ishmael, his hand would be against everyman and everyman’s hand would be against him.
I was merely expressing my personal revelation of the fact that we are tot wrong about the Muslims in everything and I think it’s wrong and we as Americans should try harder to teach others of what we’ve learned. You are obviously not very aware of your surroundings.
As it is always stated; “Ignorance is bliss”, you must be very blissful.
Sorry this was a reply for “vmac” down at the bottom.
I’m confused about the debate about Aisha & Islam…
Didn’t every religion condone marriage to young girls? Very early marriage was practiced on every continent by people of every faith.
Why the focus on whether Islamic law condones it?
Perhaps we should ask whether religion (any religion) ought to be the basis for the civil law.
Scott… Hi there…
The focus is on Sharia Law for Muslims wish to live under this legal and political system… not the Constitution… So it matters a great deal If Sharia Law allows marriage to young children “TODAY”!!!
I wonder, how has no one seen link betwixt such an incident and the novel “Wuthering Heights” by Emily Bronte?
I don’t wish to delve into the intricacies of the novel or religion, but rather the link between segregation from society, solitude and the darkness of greed, antagony and power.
Thoughts anyone?
Want thoughts huh?
1. You can’t spell.
2. How can anyone here of the same author when most of us are all from different countries and languages.
3. Blaming religion for the faults of humans is beyond stupid. It’s like saying “Guns are responsible for people killing each other.”
4. This really has nothing to do with the topic of the blog.
Agreed this has to stop legally! You would love the pedophiles here…
1. It’s illegal
2. U can find them on ur iPhone
3. The don’t get married they just pick up ur daughter from the street or ur back yard, wrap them up in wonderful sheets, take them to isolated scenic spots, have sex w them in the most derragatory way possible and then (here’s the kicker) hack them up AND… get rid oftheir remains in a grbage dump. Also this happens daily!
So if u were to have a choice of marrying ur daughter to an old man (circa Rasool Allaah/ Umar et al) or have them go w a man per the above I can see that you would prefer the latter.
You are again welcome to my 6 bedroom villa and my Beamer I’ll take the old dude any day
OK. This is getting old…please, if you don’t like something someone says read all their previous posts leading up to the one you don’t like.
Armann; I never agreed with the things the man is doing and I was not talking about the Saudi religion. I have already stated that this kind of thing happens here in America.
I just don’t know why the Prophet of Islam is being brought into child-bride…In India,they were not following Islam or anything even ages before that
they married girls 9,12,6.It was common.Dont use today’s standards to measure standards or things that happened ages ago.
In Europe,USA you have 9,10,11,..girls getting pregnant and nobody does anything and thats the norm but just when marriage issue comes ,she is child bride,….
Souble standards.
plz stop mixing between men and women. laurea stop talking to marcus it wan not neccessary to say that why do you have. plz its not allowed. its haramm for men and women to mix you become freinds and thats haraam
You are wrong. It is not haram.
The Middle East is Burning !
Where is Saudiwoman hiding ?
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